Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Kaurie]

We have different ideas what constitutes horizontal progression. Simply having more options doesn't count as horizontal progression to me, it's just more options. When I think of Horizontal, I think of Monster Hunter, where any competent hunter has at least five different sets with varied elemental resistances and a handful of skills unlocked on each one.

I simply think of it as a way to progress your character without necessarily going upwards in absolute strength (i.e. ilvl)

To support your point, Someone mentioned Monster Hunter earlier in the thread. All those armour, skill and customisation options. and yet I can go online in Monster Hunter Generations right now and, outside of outliers, I will be in a group with only "Gaijin Hunter/insert other youtube personality approved" gear.

This is the Illusion of choice in action.

I really dislike that term. In actuality, everything in the game is an illusion of choice, and illusion of choice spreads into one's daily life. That is, there is almost always a best choice, but the great thing about living in free countries in today's society is that we get to make choices - whether they are the best ones or not.

In terms of the game, sometimes one may make a suboptimal choice in order to improve their enjoyment of the game. In WoW at the moment, I am running a sub-optimal talent on my mage, because the optimal one is incredibly frustrating to use and ruins my enjoyment of the class (it's basically ley lines in FFXIV). Choices like these are great, and no one in WoW has said anything to me about it and my DPS is still competitive with everyone I group with.

While the 'best' ones may be required by top tier groups, they are not required by the general playerbase. Having no choice puts major limitations on how one can enjoy the game.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I simply think of it as a way to progress your character without necessarily going upwards in absolute strength (i.e. ilvl)

I really dislike that term. In actuality, everything in the game is an illusion of choice, and illusion of choice spreads into one's daily life. That is, there is almost always a best choice, but the great thing about living in free countries in today's society is that we get to make choices - whether they are the best ones or not.

In terms of the game, sometimes one may make a suboptimal choice in order to improve their enjoyment of the game. In WoW at the moment, I am running a sub-optimal talent on my mage, because the optimal one is incredibly frustrating to use and ruins my enjoyment of the class (it's basically ley lines in FFXIV). Choices like these are great, and no one in WoW has said anything to me about it and my DPS is still competitive with everyone I group with.

While the 'best' ones may be required by top tier groups, they are not required by the general playerbase. Having no choice puts major limitations on how one can enjoy the game.

And how exactly does this make the game more interesting? I can run a good portion of the content with Mind allocated and DEX gear. You're essentially asking for a complete character development overhaul despite fully acknowledging it is fundamentally pointless because at top tier content, you will be expected to optimize or you won't be taken. Why waste all their resources on something that doesn't actually accomplish anything? If they ever consider a similar direction, I would it to be impactful, not something I could (and likely would) ignore almost instantly.

[Kaurie]

And how exactly does this make the game more interesting? I can run a good portion of the content with Mind allocated and DEX gear. You're essentially asking for a complete character development overhaul despite fully acknowledging it is fundamentally pointless because at top tier content, you will be expected to optimize or you won't be taken. Why waste all their resources on something that doesn't actually accomplish anything? If they ever consider a similar direction, I would it to be impactful, not something I could (and likely would) ignore almost instantly.

I don't understand what your MND and DEX gear comment is about?

I did not acknowledge that. I acknowledged that world firsts will go for the 'best', but anything after that doesn't need it. This is the same as, say, group composition. However, once you pass the world firsts, any combination of 4 dps, 2 tanks and 2 heals is really viable in this game.

I do acknowledge that it would take a lot of overhaul to change fundamentals of the game to be the same as WoW. It doesn't need to be the exact same as WoW. I just used WoW as an example of why the "illusion of choice" is an idiotic term.

I think that the game developers could use their current system and provide choice, on-going progression beyond max level and/or horizontal progression without being the exact same as WoW and without having the issues that Yoshi mentioned in the interview and without forcing players to swap gear in combat.

They actually already have some of the systems in place, for example they could expand on both the cross class abilities and class -> jobs. When I first came here, I considered jobs to be "specs" of the classes. Then they abandoned it. They could go back to that, as the system is in place, and provide more jobs from classes. We could get our sword wielding DPS from a gladiator etc. Further, they could open up more abilities that can be cross classed, and actually have them be a decent choice (vs now which fully embraces the illusion of choice).

There is also the added materia which grants some level of horizontal progression, but in the most dull way possible. Perhaps materia could be added to be a bit more interesting and really change how things are played (instead of +crit, you have materia that changes skills, cooldowns or playstyle changes). Obtaining materia also feels rather grindy, more-so than it really needs to be/should be.

[Zojha]

I acknowledged that world firsts will go for the 'best', but anything after that doesn't need it.

Yes and no. You need to keep things performing within a tolerance threshold in order for them to be accepted. People will accept a monk over a ninja in their raid composition, but what about an arcanist in full STR gear with melee cross-class skills (Death Blossom, Fracture, Feint etc) that uses those skills instead of his class ones? An arcanist "as such" would already run risk of being kicked frequently. An arcanist that uses a bad build on top? No deal. The team is doing a pretty good job at keeping the jobs somewhat balanced with all the limitations, but I'm not sure how well they'd manage if they added builds on top. At least not if they were to add them for many jobs at once...

As for more class-based jobs - this actually reduces the amount of progression, because they no longer have separate levels. If you progress as scholar, you automatically progress as summoner in terms of level - it's only through gear that the two become separate and thus horizontal progression paths.

[Kaurie]

Yes and no. You need to keep things performing within a tolerance threshold in order for them to be accepted. People will accept a monk over a ninja in their raid composition, but what about an arcanist in full STR gear with melee cross-class skills (Death Blossom, Fracture, Feint etc) that uses those skills instead of his class ones? An arcanist "as such" would already run risk of being kicked frequently. An arcanist that uses a bad build on top? No deal. The team is doing a pretty good job at keeping the jobs somewhat balanced with all the limitations, but I'm not sure how well they'd manage if they added builds on top. At least not if they were to add them for many jobs at once...

As for more class-based jobs - this actually reduces the amount of progression, because they no longer have separate levels. If you progress as scholar, you automatically progress as summoner in terms of level - it's only through gear that the two become separate and thus horizontal progression paths.

Yes, I agree. However your counter example is extremely hyperbolic. This is why I gave the example of using a sub-optimal talent in WoW. It's not me running around in STR gear, it's being suboptimal.

You're arguing like Yoshi, where you're spewing out hyperbolic drivel in order to drive home a point.

I am not sure that I agree it reduces the amount of progression, it simply provides multiple pathways and play-styles from the same core.

I do agree that it would be more difficult to balance. Yoshi said some time ago that 2.x was to set the basics and 3.x was to spice things up. I took that, at the time, as 2.x was to get the core balance there, and 3.x would add a lot of what we talked about - creating more diverse playstyles. It was apparent that I was wrong, but I still feel it is a possibility for the future. With the core balance set, I think that they could now put those resources into balancing the new progression/jobs/specs/talents/gears or whatever they choose to make this game a little more interesting.