Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Remedi]

snip.

Another example would be how ppl reacted to wanderer's minuet.

[Sandpark]

but how do you retain all players? or do we only want to retain specific players?

You don't. The rise of the mmorpg, so many choices, even the juggernaut gains and loses subscribers.

You can go the full hardcore route and if it sticks maybe get 200-500k mostly staying subbed like XI did, probably harder to do nowadays. Or you go to the opposite end and the playerbase fluctuates from great at patches and abysmal between patches.

If endgame had more of what Nalien asks for, the endgame players would probably stick around longer. That wouldn't solve the bigger issue though. Getting a ton of players to reach endgame and have an endgame without too much grind.

Elder Scrolls Online tried to implement perpetual grinding with Veteran ranks, Champion Points, Caldwell gold and silver. They ended up going from sub to B2P. Dropped veteran ranks, capped champion points, are now introducing battle scaling for the entire world, removed the 3 nation allegiance so it would be easier to get groups, and try to incentive subscribing. I liked the old grind for the most part minus the bugs.

I don't play WoW. But when you go from other mmos to here, you start to appreciate some of the things SE does with XIV. So smooth in performance. I hope SE can find a way to keep the endgame players happy here.

[Alahra]

Another example would be how ppl reacted to wanderer's minuet.

That's an example on a much smaller scale, yeah. It's hard to get accurate data on the number of BRD/MCH mains compared to the number of BRD mains in ARR, but given how difficult it seems to be to recruit for the Ranged DPS slot in statics these days (when BRDs were generally fairly easy to come by back then), I wouldn't be surprised if there's been significant drop-off.

[Musashidon]

You don't. The rise of the mmorpg, so many choices, even the juggernaut gains and loses subscribers.

yea every choice will gain you/lose you subs no matter what someone is unhappy.

a lot of what i have seen is against *people should just take a break* but if yoshi p gave the burn out players more grinds so they can get stronger he alienates the players who don't burn/progress as much and fast, these players leave and now well the one group is happy the other group is the one that leaves now.

what does he do then? nothing? i mean those players are happy. i mean haven't we seen some of the arguments for hard content *if you can't do it get better* *if you want the reward play another game that gives you it*
but when it's said to the other group *hey if you want a game that gives you bis for raids play that game* it becomes some crime against humanity.

it seems most discussion more boils down to *my side has great ideas your reasoning against it is poor* no matter which side you are on.

look at fred/bass both sides said, the other sides reason was bad. WHERE IS THE DISCUSSION IN THAT?

you don't say hey you don't like pineapple on your pizza?! wow you sure hate more don't you?! you don't look at people who like cheese only pizza and go wow you have worse taste than me because i like my pizza with 10 toppings.

[HungryHippo]

i just dont think like some people here on the forums : oh my ilvl is gona be obsolete why play at all? like i sayed above i play to relax and have fun in the game with friends being it raid or dungeon or just to hang out ^^ (i like the atmosphere and the music in the game , and the heroic feeling when doing stuff :P ) (my pld is ilvl239 atm) so yes i like to max stuff out to ^^ only thing that really bores me in the game is when no one is on that i know , and i have to do stuff alone :P

Oh yeah, its a lot more fun when you play with your friends, I agree so much here. Especially when you are on voice chat too!
However, the whole thing about people wanting more depth in character as in progression/growth it's because they DO like the game, but they also think and we all know this is an MMO where character depth is one of the biggest things in the game. Are you one of the glamour people? You mentioned you talk to your friends or craft etc and you only raid with friends. Let's say there was not depth in gathering or crafting in this game, because this game allows that, however if it wasn't what would you do then? I might be wrong but you would mind end up asking for more from it, because you enjoy it and it's obvious. So to me to another person (which is you) try to be understandable in other peoples situation then say they all cry. I've seen people cry more about glamour than anything, should I say that 90% of the playerbase are just babies? Of course not, it doesn't work like that. Like i mentioned earlier, you can NEVER please everyone in any offline or online games, especially not in a MMO.

I put myself in sight to understand from players like you, which I don't wanna call casual but rather who wanna relax and take their time which you do want to do. However, many who do play MMO do want to have more depth in character. Crafting gives a bit depth to the character, compare to other games, like gathering in this game. But it's limited but crafting is amazing in this game and also have longer life compare to iLvl on the battle gear from savage, which many do complain about and I completely understand. I know you would be a bit sad if there wasnt a good depth in crafting for example, because I can tell you enjoy it. But people who do play this game for raiding or harder content or even the fact want to grow their character is limited and forced to leave. It shouldnt feel like that in a MMO at all. Or is the fact people gotten lazy and just want everything handed? I don't know.

[Frederick22]

To be contemptuous towards other's opinions and berating them for their ideas, claiming them nothing more than trolls, and telling them to leave or shut up is the worst kind of attitude. Discussion and debate, even simple arguing, is healthy to a game's existence and growth than just silence. Every idea, even the ones considered bad or just general complaints, can be shaped into something complete.

Not accusing or asking anything.

What I'm seeing here is that most of the comments, specialy on the first pages, are of people complaining that have no susbtancial proof.
If you want to make a critic fine but it's necesary to see your personal taste behind and see it from the view point of the others.
It gonna make sence what you say, and not just total nonsencess.

[Iromi]

Very disappointing. I agree with most of the stuff posted on the first two pages.

Stop playing it safe and put in some longevity in the damn game and some horizontal game play.

I notice some people talking about retaining subs and what not...well, this game isn't. At least according to the lucky bancho and that other census taken recently...it keeps dropping. It used to be 500kish people completed the main scenario, then it was 320k or so...now its down to 200k.

So something isn't working..playing it safe is counterproductive. :/ I am the last person to say GAME ISD YING!!!!! its not dying but the subs are dropping at a steady rate, that is for sure. So can we please change things up Yoshida a little? ._.

[Jetstream_Fox]

Because the RP icon is a simple UI feature. Character builds necessitate an entire addendum to the character menu infrastructure and basically overhauls progression as a whole. Not only would that impact everyone by design, the cost would be exceptionally high. You're comparing two completely different concepts-- one that requires significantly greater resources.

You entirely missed my point regarding that. I'm well aware the RP icon is a simple graphic. The point was that if he is attempting to make all demographics of this game he isn't doing it.

Players wanted dungeon crawling, they got it
RPers wanted RP icon, they got it
PvPers wanted dueling, they got it
House keeping players wanted apartments, they got it AND aquariums

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind, at first it was it wouldn't work with how 14 was developed, same excuse as to why something like PotD wouldn't work, but that was proven wrong. Now it's Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it because it takes to long, if he scraped some content that is dead on arrival such as squadrons and the new diadem, he would have ample time to think up a barebones build system, after all PotD is a very barebones dungeon crawler and people are enjoying that.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind.

I'd imagine that's because they'd have to redo not only the character system, but something like character builds isn't something that would affect only those that want them, but it would also affect those that don't want it. A change like character builds changes it up for everyone, and not everyone has the time or desire to deal with that illusion of choice.

[Kaurie]

Because if you don't need different gear sets, why even bother with making it horizontal progression? Horizontal progression implies that you'll need to change up your character on a per fight basis, whether it's by gear, talent trees, loadouts, what have you. The only game I've found that managed to do it well is Monster Hunter, and even then it's possible to brute force your way with a single gear set. Mostly.

It doesn't imply that to me. It just implies that there are multiple sets of gear all within the same basic power level. This gear is catered to differing playstyles.

While not the best example, one can look at Guild Wars 2. Here there are sets for survival, others for burst damage, others for damage over time, others for support etc. etc. You can also mix and match for balance (i.e. damage + survival, or go full damage for that glass cannon feel). It doesn't mean that I need to swap gear as I do things, it just means I can gear to my playstyle.

When I think of Horizontal progression in FFXIV, I mostly want more ways to obtain gear at the same ilvl. There is basically only 1 (or 2) gearsets per ilvl and you have no choice on secondary stats. I'd prefer a system like WoW's where you can get gear in basically any content and the secondary stats are randomized, so you can continue to progress with minor upgrades to your secondary stats (i.e. trade off -60 det for +60 crit).

I like a system that is both vertical and horizontal. This game is very much only vertical, and Guild Wars 2 went too much in the way of horizontal.

Finally, when I think of horizontal progression, I do not think about having extra fire damage which does more vs ice enemies and I do not think about changing gear while IN combat.