war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[SyzzleSpark]

That's why I MADE this topic in THE FIRST PLACE: to get the opinion on how WAR could be adjusted without absolutely DESTROYING its power of choice that make it so fun, engaging, and rewarding for intelligent players. unfortunately it's been co-opted by everything but intelligent tanks interested in intelligent discussion.

To be fair most of you hear the word nerf and instantly catastrophize. Historically nerfs have been simple number changes and have never "DESTROYED" the design of a job (there have arguably been buffs that have done this though). Choices between dps and tankiness are integral to tanking in this game in general, and its a little arrogant to assume that just because WAR is getting adjusted, along with all the other tanks in all likelihood, that that design concept is going out the window.

[ArdorGrey]

Every job is constantly making choices of what GCD they need to use. WAR are the only one to bitch about how they waste offensive capabilities to survive. God, what will it be when every PLD complain that they're losing DSP when casting Stoneskin, losing DPS when healing themselves (or other) with Clemency, losing DPS to stun an add, losing DPS to keep aggro on a group of mobs, losing DPS to boost their enmity or simply replenish their MP...oh, wait, they don't... because the whole community already complains that they do so instead of DPSing DPSing DPSing DPSing...

Plds use stoneskin during dowtime. Nice job illustrating your ignorance of how the job *actually* handles. Pld thrives on downtime, War suffers. Either you can't use abilities because they require a target, or you're burning an ability that you have to wait, or etc. pld's have so much utility that can be leveraged whenever a boss goes untargetable. and how often tdo they actually use it? never.. it's so much easier to just gripe about how they should have it better, afterall.

But hey nice strawmans, trying to change the whole argument when I illustrated the issues in your classic pld bawlfest. I personally have posted multiple times that flash not generating any sort of direct or effective dps is a serious issue with the class.

As far as the rest- lolyeah, people rely on pld to stun. And losing dps to replenish mp....wait, goring blade is a DPS *LOSS* now? how do you expect to be taken seriously by anyone with logic like that? xD

It sounds more like you're just so furious with the current tank meta that you're lashing out on.... everything. If that's the case that is fair and fine and perfectly your point of view. I also do not agree it is the be al end all or even a significant point of relevance to this topic.

[Lambdafish]

snip

I didn't say that, I'm implying that WAR is over-designed, it is designed to do everything competently (albeit not at the same time as has been discussed), and that as as a result of this there is a greater expectation of tanks as a whole, which the other two cannot keep up with. Adjustments need to be (and likely will be with the information from the devs) made from both sides, with PLD and DRK being more viable from an OT standpoint, and WAR being less of a jack of all trades (master of all).

Also, your argument about comps falls apart when instead of looking at it as "PLD and DRK comps don't work" you look at it as "PLD and DRK comps both work best when accompanied by a WAR", the issue we face here is that WARs are basically mandatory

[Sarcatica]

At the moment WAR excels more being OT and DRK/PLD for MT even though the MT/OT archtype is moot due to the tank swaps mechanic. When another tank comes along, meta will shift again or perhaps WAR remains to be the premium tank and the 3 jobs will have to wrestle for that 1 slot. That's definitely on SE.

[Reynhart]

Plds use stoneskin during dowtime

Or just before a big hit...

And losing dps to replenish mp....wait, goring blade is a DPS *LOSS* now? how do you expect to be taken seriously by anyone with logic like that? xD

You really understand what you want, right ? If you need MP fast, you'll patiently wait for GB to finish ticking before using Riot again...?

It sounds more like you're just so furious with the current tank meta

Yes, I'm furious with the tank meta, because it went for far too long before someone actually provides real adjustment to shift it. And judging by what has been done to PLD, it just shows that they have absolutely no idea of what it needs to stand true to its concept.

[DaulBan]

If Path was 5% damage reduction, and Eye was 5% reduction, then you could probably slot in another tank if they had some way of increasing overall damage.

What comes to mind would be changing something like Divine Veil so that => Until the tank takes N% of damage, the party takes 15% less damage. Basically, so long as there isn't a tank swap happening, everyone (including the MT) takes less damage. This is pretty broken, but it would be one crazy way of using a single skill. You could put a WAR in the first slot to round out that +5%, but you could also change DRK Delirium to -10% magic damage done (similar to path). between the two of them you would have the hilarious situation of everyone having -25% damage taken from Magic. Basically a better than Fey Illumination + Soil.

Assuming that you have a fight where surviving isn't an issue (hence can mostly be solo healed) this might actually give enough of a reason to just drop a healer and all of a sudden you have 5 DPS

[Sarcatica]

For example, in 2.x, BRD's lesser DPS what a trade-off for its mobility. It has no way of bypassing that situation, it was carved in its design.

It's funny because BRD dps 2.x was fine, people are just bad at it. Most BRDs back then couldn't even break that 400dps, which was still much lower then what it could do tbh.

You are free to search online what dps BRD was capable of.

[Lambdafish]

Yes, I'm furious with the tank meta, because it went for far too long before someone actually provides real adjustment to shift it. And judging by what has been done to PLD, it just shows that they have absolutely no idea of what it needs to stand true to its concept.

I completely agree, and I am someone who advocates uniqueness between jobs. PLD is all about support and utility when it comes to OT potential, but the problem is that most of its utility is worthless 99% of the time (tempered will, cover, clemency), and to make PLD more viable, this utility needs to either be changed or become more relevant. PLD could easily become more viable if it had skills akin to battle litany in its arsenal, which could increase raid DPS to close the gap between it and WAR, while not actually increasing PLDs DPS. And for balance reasons, this could be tied to sword oath.

I'd love to see PLD get some abilities like Bard songs (be them called chants or prayers or whatever) for DPS gains/mitigation. It'd be a nice addition to the game. Possibly also changing cover to a 120s 'give the target +20% damage reduction' to make it feel better.

I'd simply be happy with cover reading "Take all damage intended for target party member". The physical damage aspect alone is most of the reason that the skill is worthless (the other being that most of the scenarios where it is relevant are scenarios where you as the MT messed up, and it should not be a "fix mistakes" button).

[Reynhart]

You are free to search online what dps BRD was capable of.

They were capable of doing fine (Some of them even did 1000 DPS but not per second ), but less than BLM when mobility wasn't needed.

Which is why some BRD complained that mobility was overrated...and thus, Wanderer's Minuet.

[ArdorGrey]

Or just before a big hit...

You really understand what you want, right ? If you need MP fast, you'll patiently wait for GB to finish ticking before using Riot again...?

Sorry, you're right. Pld is so starved for mp use that they should be frequently using Riot blade. In fact, forget goring blade completely. You're probably best served aborting the combo prematurely to get in more mp quicker.