war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[Brian_]

Nevermind the reality that there are actually plenty of gaps in uptime to swap Oaths at no DPS loss.

[Reynhart]

So can you do some math for me to prove that switching oaths costs you 500 - 300*.75 = 275 potency? Because I'm seeing a lot of opinions, but not a whole lot of evidence.

First, your calculation is a bit off. FC is 525 potency thanks to Deliverance. Inner Beast is 300 potency, since it ignores Defiance penalty. So you're losing 225 potency.

We've assumed that PLD ppGCD is around 320 for its optimal rotation while using SwO. Using a GCD to switch to ShO or SwO makes you lose those 320 potency each time. Even if you count that GB is ticking for 50 during this (But will probably fall off for one or two GCD), it means you lose more than your 225 potency each time you switch. And it's not even counting how many GCD you stay in ShO where you "lose" 15% of your damage +50pot/GCD.

Technically it's not a waste of DPS too if you need the extra mitigation to survive (whether just barely or safely).

WARs are claiming that using Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave is a "waste", not me

Nevermind the reality that there are actually plenty of gaps in uptime to swap Oaths at no DPS loss.

Shouldn't you advocate being in SwOath until right before the tankbuster to maximize DPS ?

PLD has better physical mitigation and DRK has better magical mitigation.

Yes, they have. But instead of very specific situations where PLD can top both of them thanks to HG, there is nothing that PLD and DRK can survive that WAR can't.

Judged independently, PLD and DRK both have higher raid mitigation than WAR does -- DRK having persistently higher raid mitigation with Delirium and Reprisal and PLD having higher one-time raid mitigation with DV. And, because of their equally valuable unique utility, just like WAR, they will be ensured a raid spot.

Considering that Delirium only affects magical damage, and Reprisal needs to be proced by a parry, I'd say that DRK's raid mitigation is less reliable than WAR's. As for PLD, yes, DV is a very good skill but only for burst damage.

[Sarcatica]

You don't get it. WAR needs to time Inner Beast. That by itself is already a loss. WAR only has 2 on demands (Raw Intuition normally used for that 3rd FC). PLD/DRK have the huge flexibility to pop CDs when they want/need to use. I don't even turn on Grit/ShO for most of the fights barring A8S and for the starting aggro.

[DaulBan]

You don't get it. WAR needs to time Inner Beast. That by itself is already a loss. WAR only has 2 on demands (Raw Intuition normally used for that 3rd FC). PLD/DRK have the huge flexibility to pop CDs when they want/need to use. I don't even turn on Grit/ShO for most of the fights barring A8S and for the starting aggro.

This is probably the best reason. ShO on demand, regardless of whether it's a DPS loss, provides guaranteed 20% mitigation to incoming damage, whereas a WAR switching to Defiance has no such gain on the spot. Even though it's a DPS loss to go into the Oath, you don't need to rely on your stacks landing within 6s of a tank buster, nor wasting 200 potency in the gamble. Shield Oath is convenient, holding stacks isn't. Especially if you do it for multiple combos.

[Reynhart]

GB 150 + 230 + 540 = 920, 306.7 ppgcd

150 + 230 + 640 = 1020, 340 ppGCD

Since it's 1 GB to 2 RA, (920 +2*700)/9 = 257.8 ppGCD.

1020+2*700 = 2420
2420/9 = 268

But SA actually gives you 50 potency per auto. Assuming that it was 50 potency per auto, and an auto was 2.5s (which it's not), you have to subtract 9*50 potency.

What ? We're counting the DPS loss from having to switch to ShO from SwO, like a WAR that needs to switch to Defiance and use Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave under Deliverance.

SwO gives you 50 potency (almost) per GCD so your averagge ppGCD is 268+50 = 318 ppGCD.

For the same combo in ShO, you'd have

GB = (1020*0.85)/3 289 ppGCD
RA = (700*0.85)/3 198 ppGCD
GB+RA+RA = (1020+700+700)*0.85/3 = 228 ppGCD

So, by being in ShO instead of SwO, you're losing 90 ppGCD. And that's not counting the 2 GCD where you'll actually deals 0 potency.

[DaulBan]

snip

Yeah I realized my mistake in what you were saying, which is why I deleted the post, I don't know why I got your meaning turned around there. That's my bad

I will point out that despite the DPS loss from switching oaths, there is also the loss of the cleave potency, any held stacks for the inner beast (since the inner beast duration is pretty short), and the 10s following the swap where you can't switch oaths, while a Paladin might be able to swap back faster. The fact that there are these extra requirements (5 stacks, losing none, 10s of guaranteed 25s less damage) means that the inner beast might wind up being either messier (barely up during the buster) or cost a lot of potency (wasted stacks that might've gone towards a FC).

[Brian_]

WARs are claiming that using Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave is a "waste", not me

Just to be clear, I never claimed it was a waste. I claimed that as a WAR, you feel really bad needing to use IB because of how big of a DPS hit it is. And, in relation to FC, that it is a trade off.

So, as you've detailed, you are indeed losing something when you FC. Yes, you gain something, too. But that is literally the definition of a trade-off.

Shouldn't you advocate being in SwOath until right before the tankbuster to maximize DPS ?

Obviously. I don't think you really need ShO to survive anything anymore but my point was more that you frequently don't need to expend the GCD switching back to SwO or to SwO initially.

When you IB instead of FC, this is what you give up --

630 potency with at 10% crit boost. I think the current crit multiplier for BiS gear is around 170%. I think on average, that works out to around 674 potency.

So you lose 314 potential potency on average each time you IB. After that, you are stuck in Defiance for another 4 GCDs. Assuming the best case scenario where those 4 GCDs are HS, Maim, Path, and HS, it breaks down like this: 135+171+225+135. If you were in Deliverance, those potencies would be 189+239.4+315+189 with a small amount of average potency added based on crit. That totals out to another 266.4+ lost potency.

As for PLD, whether or not the potency loss is worse depends entirely on what GCD is being pushed out of the phase/fight. Just to do the hypothetical math -- assuming you swap to ShO after refreshing GB, lose an FB and SB at the end of the fight due to Oaths consuming 2 GCDs, have a 2.24s delay weapon, and spend 2 GCDs in ShO to weather the tank buster, you lose ~150 potency from lost SwO bonuses (potentially only 100), 150 + 200 potency from the lost FB and SB, and 22.5+30 from the ShO damage penalty on your FB and SB while in ShO. That totals to 552.5 lost potency + some potency lost from GB clipping. If you are getting anything else but FB and SB pushed out of the phase/fight then the loss is larger.

If its just a one way swap to ShO / Defiance, the PLD loses less potency because their subsequent potency loss is lighter.

Assuming an Eye > BB rotation, WAR's ppGCD in Deliverance is ~344+ including Maim and FC but not including the Deliverance crit bonus. Their ppGCD in Defiance is ~234 including Maim and IB. PLD's ppGCD in SwO is around ~320 not including the things I specified earlier. PLD's ppGCD in ShO is around ~229.

But this is actually not really relevant. My point was that WAR has to trade DPS for mitigation. I think the numbers clearly prove that. I never argued it was more or less than PLD.

[Reynhart]

I claimed that as a WAR, you feel really bad needing to use IB because of how big of a DPS hit it is.

Do WAR really feel bad because they survived a big hit ? Maybe my tank pride is just misplaced...

My point was that WAR has to trade DPS for mitigation.

We still don't have the same view of what a "trade-off" is. WAR can do either of those, it just can't do them at the same time.

For example, in 2.x, BRD's lesser DPS what a trade-off for its mobility. It has no way of bypassing that situation, it was carved in its design. PLD lower potency on skills was a trade-off for its shield, and it also couldn't do anything for it...

WAR has nothing like that. If the situation requires heavy mitigation, it can do it. If the situation requires high burst damage, it can also do it.
It can do very well as a MT, with the shortest CD on mitigation, and very well as an OT, by having great utility and keeping all of its skills relevant thanks to additionnal effects on mitigation CD.
And those effects are just arbitrary. Why would Raw Intuition and Vengeance give a stack ? Why is Berserk increasing AP instead of damage ?

[Brian_]

Just because you don't define something as a trade-off doesn't mean it's not a trade-off according to the English language. This has nothing to do with views and everything to do with a dictionary.

You also conveniently left out the most common situation in progression -- situations that require you to have both maximized DPS and maximized mitigation. And, WAR can't do that nearly as well as either PLD or DRK. That is the reality of why WARs OT -- because of the trade-off they need to make that PLD and DRK can do better.

[DaulBan]

That's another great point, you don't expend damage using Shadowskin or Rampart, but the equivalent move in Inner Beast comes with a price in terms of overall damage to use.