war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[ArdorGrey]

Even in dictionnaries, "trade-off" rarely describes a situation where you can go back and forth at will. In economics or computer science, it's usually a one time decision that drives your entire plan of action.

How much time does your MT spend in tank stance if you need "maximized mitigation" ?

You also don't have the same eHP by using Rampart than a WAR using IB.

A: I think you mean "dictionaries". if you're going to be petty *AT LEAST* get your spelling right.

B: since you clearly advertised an appetite for the shallow things in life, you need to acknowledge that warriors ARE ALWAYS MAKING A CHOICE.

You can't (logically) gripe that we have better offensive cooldowns and then complain that IB is maybe, arguably, slightly better than things like shadowskin or rampart. The class is *built* around making choices.

The reality is inner beast is only used when absolutely necessary and if none of warriors stack choices were any good then the whole point of having stacks and making intelligent choices would be rendered MOOT.

That's why I MADE this topic in THE FIRST PLACE: to get the opinion on how WAR could be adjusted without absolutely DESTROYING its power of choice that make it so fun, engaging, and rewarding for intelligent players. unfortunately it's been co-opted by everything but intelligent tanks interested in intelligent discussion.

It seems like for every rational post on here about actual issues with the class I see one or two dozen people COMPLETELY ignorant of how the classes mechanics actually handle, griping left and right about how they won't be sated until pld and drk are both easier to play and don't have to deal with spur of the moment decision making, while also both having better dps and universal Edef and self healing and everything war has but better but easier and blah blah blah. the best part is most of these people are dps mains.... or pld mains... or drk mains..... making brilliant posts left and right.

Someone seriously said holmgang was better than HG.... wth is wrong with this community? o_O

[Reynhart]

you need to acknowledge that warriors ARE ALWAYS MAKING A CHOICE.

Every job is constantly making choices of what GCD they need to use. WAR are the only one to bitch about how they waste offensive capabilities to survive. God, what will it be when every PLD complain that they're losing DSP when casting Stoneskin, losing DPS when healing themselves (or other) with Clemency, losing DPS to stun an add, losing DPS to keep aggro on a group of mobs, losing DPS to boost their enmity or simply replenish their MP...oh, wait, they don't... because the whole community already complains that they do so instead of DPSing DPSing DPSing DPSing...

You can't (logically) gripe that we have better offensive cooldowns and then complain that IB is maybe, arguably, slightly better than things like shadowskin or rampart. The class is *built* around making choices.

Of course I can. For the most of 2.x, WAR did higher damage than PLD on every WS, despite being able to stack more frequent and higher mitigation except for HG.
Tell me what "trade-off" it has, back then...

The reality is inner beast is only used when absolutely necessary and if none of warriors stack choices were any good then the whole point of having stacks and making intelligent choices would be rendered MOOT.

The reality is that WAR sounds like its a very skilled base decision when all fights are totally scripted and you always know exaclty what attacks will come at what time.

PLD can ALSO switch before the hit comes in and gain another 20% mitigation just for switching, AND burn rampart for 40% mitigation.

36%

Roughly another 20% physical mitigation cooldown on a 20 second timer, and again off gcd....

30 seconds

If you're going to be petty *AT LEAST* get your numbers right

[ArdorGrey]

Every job is constantly making choices of what GCD they need to use. WAR are the only one to bitch about how they waste offensive capabilities to survive. God, what will it be when every PLD complain that they're losing DSP when casting Stoneskin, losing DPS when healing themselves (or other) with Clemency, losing DPS to stun an add, losing DPS to keep aggro on a group of mobs, losing DPS to boost their enmity or simply replenish their MP...oh, wait, they don't... because the whole community already complains that they do so instead of DPSing DPSing DPSing DPSing...

Plds use stoneskin during dowtime. Nice job illustrating your ignorance of how the job *actually* handles. Pld thrives on downtime, War suffers. Either you can't use abilities because they require a target, or you're burning an ability that you have to wait, or etc. pld's have so much utility that can be leveraged whenever a boss goes untargetable. and how often tdo they actually use it? never.. it's so much easier to just gripe about how they should have it better, afterall.

But hey nice strawmans, trying to change the whole argument when I illustrated the issues in your classic pld bawlfest. I personally have posted multiple times that flash not generating any sort of direct or effective dps is a serious issue with the class.

As far as the rest- lolyeah, people rely on pld to stun. And losing dps to replenish mp....wait, goring blade is a DPS *LOSS* now? how do you expect to be taken seriously by anyone with logic like that? xD

It sounds more like you're just so furious with the current tank meta that you're lashing out on.... everything. If that's the case that is fair and fine and perfectly your point of view. I also do not agree it is the be al end all or even a significant point of relevance to this topic.

[Reynhart]

Plds use stoneskin during dowtime

Or just before a big hit...

And losing dps to replenish mp....wait, goring blade is a DPS *LOSS* now? how do you expect to be taken seriously by anyone with logic like that? xD

You really understand what you want, right ? If you need MP fast, you'll patiently wait for GB to finish ticking before using Riot again...?

It sounds more like you're just so furious with the current tank meta

Yes, I'm furious with the tank meta, because it went for far too long before someone actually provides real adjustment to shift it. And judging by what has been done to PLD, it just shows that they have absolutely no idea of what it needs to stand true to its concept.

[Lambdafish]

Yes, I'm furious with the tank meta, because it went for far too long before someone actually provides real adjustment to shift it. And judging by what has been done to PLD, it just shows that they have absolutely no idea of what it needs to stand true to its concept.

I completely agree, and I am someone who advocates uniqueness between jobs. PLD is all about support and utility when it comes to OT potential, but the problem is that most of its utility is worthless 99% of the time (tempered will, cover, clemency), and to make PLD more viable, this utility needs to either be changed or become more relevant. PLD could easily become more viable if it had skills akin to battle litany in its arsenal, which could increase raid DPS to close the gap between it and WAR, while not actually increasing PLDs DPS. And for balance reasons, this could be tied to sword oath.

I'd love to see PLD get some abilities like Bard songs (be them called chants or prayers or whatever) for DPS gains/mitigation. It'd be a nice addition to the game. Possibly also changing cover to a 120s 'give the target +20% damage reduction' to make it feel better.

I'd simply be happy with cover reading "Take all damage intended for target party member". The physical damage aspect alone is most of the reason that the skill is worthless (the other being that most of the scenarios where it is relevant are scenarios where you as the MT messed up, and it should not be a "fix mistakes" button).

[DaulBan]

-snip-

I'd love to see PLD get some abilities like Bard songs (be them called chants or prayers or whatever) for DPS gains/mitigation. It'd be a nice addition to the game. Possibly also changing cover to a 120s 'give the target +20% damage reduction' to make it feel better.

[Reynhart]

I'd love to see PLD get some abilities like Bard songs (be them called chants or prayers or whatever) for DPS gains/mitigation. It'd be a nice addition to the game. Possibly also changing cover to a 120s 'give the target +20% damage reduction' to make it feel better.

For me, all three tanks should provide the same overall mitigation and DPS when main tanking. This, way, no tank should be the "de-facto" MT.

As for OT, though, WAR should be the one to do higher DPS, PLD should be the one to Cure and Protect (mostly the main tank), and DRK should be the one to debilitate and put raidwide leech.

[Lambdafish]

Sorry, you're right. Pld is so starved for mp use that they should be frequently using Riot blade. In fact, forget goring blade completely. You're probably best served aborting the combo prematurely to get in more mp quicker.

Actually in AOE heavy fights (A2S as an example), PLD has a tonne of MP management, with their 4 MP consuming moves taking up a good chunk of their MP. In my current PLD MP pool of 5198 (i239), I can use 7 flashes, switch stances 5 times, or use clemency twice. In order to maintain hate, while stance dancing, your MP would drop fast (not taking into account any situation where I might use clemency, as they are few and far between, but should still be accounted for). Your misconception comes from the fact that PLDs MP management is not normally relevant, but that does not mean that in certain scenarios PLDs do have a hard job managing MP.

[ArdorGrey]

Or just before a big hit...

You really understand what you want, right ? If you need MP fast, you'll patiently wait for GB to finish ticking before using Riot again...?

Sorry, you're right. Pld is so starved for mp use that they should be frequently using Riot blade. In fact, forget goring blade completely. You're probably best served aborting the combo prematurely to get in more mp quicker.

[Reynhart]

Sorry, you're right. Pld is so starved for mp use that they should be frequently using Riot blade. In fact, forget goring blade completely. You're probably best served aborting the combo prematurely to get in more mp quicker.

And earlier, you complained about PLD not using their utility skills...maybe you should try using Clemency a bit more...or not, since people will cry that it lowers your DPS anyway...

EDIT to following question because of daily limit post :

How would this not just reaffirm the existing meta where MT is a toss up and WAR is guaranteed OT? O.o seems like a lousy idea.

First, imagine that boss auto-attacks are much stronger (And some fights less scripted). The idea would be to put more emphasis on using tank stance.

After that, PLD's utility as a protector should be to split damage between the two tanks a little more, by providing support mitigation for the MT. This way, both tanks could stay longer out of tank stance. And with support healing, it would also allow healers to stay longer in Cleric Stance, thus increasing their DPS too.

As for DRK, it could have a new spell, with a 3-4 second casting time, thus impratictal as a MT, that refresh status ailments on the enemy. This way, other party members would not have to refresh their DoT and debuffs as often, and could focus on doing higher damage. I think MNK would be glad if someone else could refresh their Dragon Kick, WAR could apply both Path and Eye with an OT DRK, PLD could use more RA with GB still ticking, etc... And let's not talk about SCH and SMN paired with a DRK...