war nerfs(srs bznz pls)

[DaulBan]

What I feel is that it would have also been the same in 2.x if we already three tanks.
Even before the "shifting" in raid requirement, WAR would already have a secured spot while PLD and WAR would compete for the remaining spot.

If you truly believe that then I think we have to presume that PLD is just bad. I don't necessarily think it is (personally I like 60 PLD), but if it is so bad that you would honestly consider running double WAR over a single Pally, there is something intimately wrong with Paladin, not with Warrior. I mean, if 0 people played SMN because its CDs were bad (and far more people play BLM than SMN raiding now) would you just say 'Well BLM is OP and SMN is crap so we need to nerf BLM'? It's apples to oranges, but the comparison holds. If Paladin really is that bad it needs a dramatic shift to become good. Warrior doesn't need to be dragged down to its level.

[Reynhart]

No, you have said on multiple occasions that WAR has no trade offs. That is wrong.

Having to chose what GCD you will use is not a "trade-off". WAR has higher burst DPS than PLD and DRK, equal or higher average DPS, higher burst healing, and utility that will always ensure a spot. It's accepted that PLD should have noticeable lower DPS than WAR "Because it's a PLD". Tell me one thing were WAR is noticeably lower than the other two "Because it's a WAR" ?

And, you've spoken about the defensive synergy of WAR's offensive buffs like it's actually something that really matters. It's not. And, like I already explained, the only difference in the offensive synergy of WAR's defensive buffs is that you get 1 stack every 90/120s. That is hardly something to call foul over.

It's not just "one stack every 90/120s", it's the ability to use an additionnal Fell Cleave during Berserk which, by your own claim, is a huge part of their DPS...While still allowing them to keep their DPS stance a little longer, like PLD and DRK can do.
It's also the ability to boost its healing really high, creating a better synergy between its own skill and a cross-class skill as early as 2.0. This just by having the only (IIRC) skill that increases Attack Power instead of damage.

I don't necessarily think it is (personally I like 60 PLD), but if it is so bad that you would honestly consider running double WAR over a single Pally, there is something intimately wrong with Paladin, not with Warrior.

You won't run double WAR for several reasons. But, let's suppose than stacking the same job would have no effect on the LB, and that you could apply two Storm's Eye at the same time. I'm pretty sure double WAR would have been a thing.

But again, PLD and DRK are not so bad, WAR is just better.
Which doesn't prevent me from playing PLD and DRK more than WAR because I like their playstyle more.

[Brian_]

snip.

BB combo without maim: 150/200/280 = 210 ppGCD

BB combo with maim: 180/240/336 = 252 ppGCD. FC is available every 7-8 GCDs working out to 80 ppGCD. That adds up to 332 ppGCD.

How did you end up with 348.6? By including the Deliverance bonus?

PLD's ppGCD in SwO assuming an RA>RA>GB rotation with a 2.4 GCD is around 320 without including Swipe, SW, CoS or FoF from what I remember.

So, to be fair, I don't think that disproves the fact that maim merely balances their potencies. Eye is another issue.

[Sarcatica]

Having to choose what GCD to use is not a tradeoff. Having to choose to DPS or MITIGATE is a tradeoff. You can't have IB and FC at the same time.

This is largely different if you compare to PLD and DRK because they don't have to choose DPS or mitigation because they can pop CDs and still DPS for the most part.

[DaulBan]

snip.

Maim:
(180 + 240 + 336 + 240) + 49.8 (Deliverance Bonus) = 1045.8. 1045.8/3 = 348.6.

You're missing the +5% from having deliverance on during the combo.

A spreadsheet with the breakdown of damage as well as damage loss is in this spreadsheet if you're interested. I might have some errors in there though, I haven't gone through and tidied it up.

[Sarcatica]

You won't run double WAR for several reasons. But, let's suppose than stacking the same job would have no effect on the LB, and that you could apply two Storm's Eye at the same time. I'm pretty double WAR would have been a thing.

But again, PLD and DRK are not so bad, WAR is just better.
Which doesn't prevent me from playing PLD and DRK more than WAR because I like their playstyle more.

So you are saying that the top FCs and raid groups aren't capitalizing on the double WAR comp? The LB generation is by far not even an issue. There are just what PLD/DRK can do and WAR can't do. Dungeons and 24-mans aside, PLD/DRK are pretty damn useful for the current raid content. 99% of the speed runs logs aren't even bringing double WARs (they do DRK/WAR comp for the most part), what makes you think double WARs is such a godly comp? Can you even substantiate your points, because they are oozing out 'opinions' and not actually tested and verified?


Speedruns: https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/10#metric=speed

[Reynhart]

Having to choose what GCD to use is not a tradeoff. Having to choose to DPS or MITIGATE is a tradeoff. You can't have IB and FC at the same time.

As a PLD, if I need to switch from ShO to SwO and switch back later on, I'll lose more DPS than a WAR having to do Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave.
Let's also hope I don't have to use Clemency, "wasting" a GCD to not DPS and break my combo.

And WAR still have several CD to use without Defiance.

what makes you think double WARs is such a godly comp?

I didn't say "it's a godly comp". I'd say that if you could stack double Eye, I'm sure more parties would run double WAR.

[DaulBan]

As a PLD, if I need to switch from ShO to SwO and switch back later on, I'll lose more DPS than a WAR having to do Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave.

So can you do some math for me to prove that switching oaths costs you 500 - 300*.75 = 275 potency? Because I'm seeing a lot of opinions, but not a whole lot of evidence.

=

I didn't say "it's a godly comp". I'd say that if you could stack double Eye, I'm sure more parties would run double WAR.

So your point is actually just moot.

[Brian_]

Having to chose what GCD you will use is not a "trade-off". WAR has higher burst DPS than PLD and DRK, equal or higher average DPS, higher burst healing, and utility that will always ensure a spot. It's accepted that PLD should have noticeable lower DPS than WAR "Because it's a PLD". Tell me one thing were WAR is noticeably lower than the other two "Because it's a WAR" ?

My original line was "WAR is not a class about having your cake and eating it to." Do you know what that means? If you don't, then you shouldn't quote it and reply to it. WAR is a class where you cannot have maximized DPS and mitigation at the same time. You choose between the two. You trade mitigation for DPS and vice versa. That is not having your cake and eating it too.

You replied to that by literally saying that picking between two awesome things is not a trade-off. No, that is literally the definition of a trade off. If you want to post on an English forum, you should really try to understand the language first.

So that has nothing to do with PLD or DRK. But if you want to have that argument, then fine. I'll still humor you. PLD and DRK have better immunities than WAR. PLD has better physical mitigation and DRK has better magical mitigation. Judged independently, PLD and DRK both have higher raid mitigation than WAR does -- DRK having persistently higher raid mitigation with Delirium and Reprisal and PLD having higher one-time raid mitigation with DV. And, because of their equally valuable unique utility, just like WAR, they will be ensured a raid spot.

It's not just "one stack every 90/120s", it's the ability to use an additionnal Fell Cleave during Berserk which, by your own claim, is a huge part of their DPS...While still allowing them to keep their DPS stance a little longer, like PLD and DRK can do.
It's also the ability to boost its healing really high, creating a better synergy between its own skill and a cross-class skill as early as 2.0. This just by having the only (IIRC) skill that increases Attack Power instead of damage.

It doesn't boost your healing really high. It is a very marginal healing boost that ultimately makes very little difference in a real fight.

Losing a Berserked FC hurts but in terms of an entire fight, it will only amount to a small DPS drop from the WAR. So really, it's hardly that big a deal.

But this is exactly my point. These are in reality and practice very small things but you are blowing them up to be some game breaking issue or difference maker. It isn't. And, it's hardly why PLD and DRK are considered weaker tanks that don't work well together.

[Sarcatica]

As a PLD, if I need to switch from ShO to SwO and switch back later on, I'll lose more DPS than a WAR having to do Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave.

Most of the time, you can easily pop a CD to offset the dmg and still able to DPS.

Exactly what contents are you doing? 8mans (exclude midas sav) and 24mans are so easy that you don't even need to use ShO to mitigate damage, that is if you have all the CDs planned. for A5S, there are many parts where you don't ever need ShO, the only one for ShO is when you get the concussion stacks (your dmg plunges down a lot, but even then I just tank it raw with more CDs). For A6S, it's all stacks based and positions based. A7S, take the shots like a man and do a tank swap now and then OR just endure the pain (discussion with your healers is a must). A8S is more or less finetuning strats and ballsdeeping.

Technically it's not a waste of DPS too if you need the extra mitigation to survive (whether just barely or safely).