Roles for Samurai, Red Mage, Dancer

[Shippuu]

Well "caster" isn't really a role, it's just a term used to identify the type of class/job/whatever (i.e. a broad group identity). Generally speaking, casters are magic users, be it they are primarily instant use spells (similar to melee skills/abilities), have cast time, or channeled. If SMN, for example, were entirely composed of instant cast spells, you'd still lop them in with the group identified as "caster". They're casting spells, even if they are instant. It's pretty rare for anyone to not use that to reference a magic user in general. For the role of tanking, instant cast with some either channeled or cast time spells/abilities thrown about.

By this definition we have 2 caster tanks already then. So if redundancy is a valid argument against something like Samurai via their weapon choice, then this would also apply to future mage tanks being redundant when we have Paladin and Dark Knight, who both cast magic spells in an instant cast fashion.

In my opinion, Casters are casters because they have cast bars, whether it's a channel or fill guage. Yes instant cast spells are still "cast" but now it's just arguing semantics.

In terms of the idea of distance, that much is fairly irrelevant. Think about times you solo, need to move in close (e.g. WHM Holy), or even use as a means to increase DPS (like SMN were technically moved to do during the 2.0 era, since books as weapons added a noticeable increase). You're in melee proximity for those cases. What you might be thinking of is a ranged tank, in this case. Those are of magic use or physical, as was the case of 2.0 BRDs kiting FATE bosses around, since the point is to simply play in a way that keeps distance between you and the target(s). Outside of kiting or fighting ranged-only mobs, they don't really exist for obvious OP status reasons lol.

I certainly wasn't arguing for any kind of a ranged tank because that's an even more absurd idea than a tank that primarily has cast bars for their attacks.

Again, the term caster is simply a title or identity, it's not a reflection of mandatory play. Instant cast spells, spells with cast time, spells that are channeled, etc. are all part of the identity of "caster". That is, a character that utilizes magic as their primary. Technically, if PLD in this game could cure groups reliably, they'd be considered a caster too if they choose to focus on healing lol. Since they're more melee oriented though, they're simply a melee or tank that can cast spells. Even the term "melee" is simply a description to identify the primary means of doing their job. Casters can melee too, but you rightfully wouldn't label them as such.

That's one definition sure, but it can also be applied as a gameplay mechanic and not an identity, that's how words work they can have multiple definitions. And in the viewpoint of games development particularly for MMO's, a Caster is someone who casts spells usually via cast bars. You don't call Death Knights in WoW casters even though they cast plenty of spells, but you'd call Mages casters, Warlocks casters, etc. etc. You're really just arguing semantics here.

[Welsper59]

By this definition we have 2 caster tanks already then. So if redundancy is a valid argument against something like Samurai via their weapon choice, then this would also apply to future mage tanks being redundant when we have Paladin and Dark Knight, who both cast magic spells in an instant cast fashion.

In my opinion, Casters are casters because they have cast bars, whether it's a channel or fill guage. Yes instant cast spells are still "cast" but now it's just arguing semantics.




I certainly wasn't arguing for any kind of a ranged tank because that's an even more absurd idea than a tank that primarily has cast bars for their attacks.



That's one definition sure, but it can also be applied as a gameplay mechanic and not an identity, that's how words work they can have multiple definitions. And in the viewpoint of games development particularly for MMO's, a Caster is someone who casts spells usually via cast bars. You don't call Death Knights in WoW casters even though they cast plenty of spells, but you'd call Mages casters, Warlocks casters, etc. etc. You're really just arguing semantics here.

Well, DK's do focus on using their melee-range weapons to deal most of whatever damage they do, so they are classified as melee. It's not so much semantics as it is deductive reasoning/logic. DKs use their melee weapons to deal most of the damage, be it Shadow or Frost, so they must be in melee range. Purely physical classes like Warrior also has to use melee range weapons to deal most/all damage, which we classify as melee. Both rely primarily on their physical close-ranged combat skills and damage to do their roles. Thus, DK is melee by default and not caster.

Since WoW is brought up, I guess the primary example one can give on the matter is Paladin and Druid there. Do you consider Holy (healing) spec to be a caster? If so, do you consider Protection or Retribution to be casters? They do use spells afterall. I'm going to assume "no". If we're going on the cast time/bars bit, then what does that make Resto Druids? Their primary means of healing is instant cast HoT spells, where it was pretty rare to see them actually use a cast bar throughout various expansion pack periods of the game before. They obvious had some spells with cast bars, and it would only be there for a couple, but it was hardly a heavy occurrence. I'd argue it's not much different than how often you'd see a cast bar on PLD here. I'm going to again assume something, in that you'd consider those Resto Druids as "casters", despite it commonly not casting spells involving cast bars.

Thus we get to my point on that matter, and what I honestly believe is a universal objective acceptance of what we consider a "caster". They are classes/jobs that are magic users where magic spells (in general) are their primary function, and thus we are able to separate physical combat oriented cases like XIV's PLD from it, despite it have magic spells available. This is akin to the differing of Protection and Retribution specs from Holy in WoW. Heavy cast bar requirements being present for most/all spell casts for the term to apply becomes very subjective, as is the case with my mentioning of Resto Druids.

And just to note, I left out "primarily magic users" at the beginning of my reply you quoted, so while we do have 2 magic using tanks, that's not how they function to primarily do their role. I did mention the "primary" bit at the end, in my defense. The tanks we have now focus on their physical combat skills to do their roles, rather than actual magic like you'd see from a BLM or SMN. Keep in mind that the term "caster" is never officially bound, and simply applied by common understanding. So you're not technically wrong to view it that way, but there is an underlying understanding about it. I laid out as much of an objective definition for the community as I could think of, but from there, the details are where it becomes subjective. I get where you're coming from on the idea of cast bars, since that's what magic users are often tied with (lore wise due to incantations and chants), but then we have to look at examples that break the mold, again referring to Resto Druid.

Edit: Just to add another clarification, I agree that the redundancy argument is pointless to say SAM can't be a tank. Over saturation of many elements that make up an MMORPG game are centered around redundant themes lol. Source: 13yrs of various MMORPG play, which include 12yrs of WoW and around 8 staggered yrs of XI.

[Shippuu]

Druid WoW stuff

I see where you're coming from and I understand. Druid is definitely a sort of anomaly if that's the case. At the same time they still have casted heals like regrowth and healing touch but they're definitely an example of something that can't be easily labelled caster or not.

So you've pointed out my flawed mindset of what I would describe something as a caster and I'll concede that to you. You have a broader definition of caster than I, and so when I think of a caster something more specific comes to mind but it doesn't have to be confined like that.

I still feel I'd have a hard time calling a job that used mostly instant cast spells in FFXIV a "caster tank." A Mage tank certainly. Even then it doesn't really broach the issue that a primarily magical damaging tank has it's own problems, but that can be solved with simply having said magical attacks deal normal typed damage and not magic damage, even if that doesn't make the most sense. It's done on current jobs anyways so guess it's a non-issue.

There's still the itemization issue if it's supposed to look like a mage. But if it's an armored mage then that'd be fine too. There's just not many iconic (and popular) Final Fantasy jobs that fit that bill. Samurai could still definitely be one of them though as it's had some history with magical attacks/summoning spirits etc.

[Welsper59]

I see where you're coming from and I understand. Druid is definitely a sort of anomaly if that's the case. At the same time they still have casted heals like regrowth and healing touch but they're definitely an example of something that can't be easily labelled caster or not.

So you've pointed out my flawed mindset of what I would describe something as a caster and I'll concede that to you. You have a broader definition of caster than I, and so when I think of a caster something more specific comes to mind but it doesn't have to be confined like that.

I still feel I'd have a hard time calling a job that used mostly instant cast spells in FFXIV a "caster tank." A Mage tank certainly. Even then it doesn't really broach the issue that a primarily magical damaging tank has it's own problems, but that can be solved with simply having said magical attacks deal normal typed damage and not magic damage, even if that doesn't make the most sense. It's done on current jobs anyways so guess it's a non-issue.

There's still the itemization issue if it's supposed to look like a mage. But if it's an armored mage then that'd be fine too. There's just not many iconic (and popular) Final Fantasy jobs that fit that bill. Samurai could still definitely be one of them though as it's had some history with magical attacks/summoning spirits etc.

Oh I definitely agree. The naming convention of a "caster tank" just doesn't flow well. Thus, I'd probably never call it that, even though it technically would qualify, but as you've stated a "mage tank" would be better. From my experience, the type of damage a tank of magical properties would mostly do is such a cop out field lol. "Non-elemental" is a frequent one RPGs like to turn to.

As for itemization, just like the damage type, they can always just make up something. Samurai though, follow Bushido, which lore wise does have a bit of spiritual magics involved, is more akin to giving them super human capabilities. SAM would probably be the least likely candidate of being a magic type... in fact, the only one left of potential options (since DRK and PLD are done) would be RDM lol.

[Katana190]

SAM would probably be the least likely candidate of being a magic type... in fact, the only one left of potential options (since DRK and PLD are done) would be RDM lol.

I really want a Mage tank to be held off for Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer, I think RDM is the least fitting but that's just my opinion (Y) I could definity see RDM tank being a possibility but I think Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer would be a lot more fitting.

Apart to add a new fresh air to tanks, you forget WAR utility go to get nerf and there is no other tank how figth to WAR in the OT spot, so add a new tank with some utility take it from WAR, a new gameplay, only need to watch other tanks un other mmo to see there is todo many mechanics to add to the role.

Just to add, WAR is not getting nerfed if that's what your saying, but Yoshi said he would bring the other tanks up to standards which is long overdue. It's nice their doing this, we'll see how it goes though. The problem is if they left WAR to be the overlord tank it is and added another Tank that is OT orientated, there would be no excuse to not take New Tank/WAR as it would just be meta.

Edit: I know GS's are taken by Dark Knights, so they could always make a new weapon up for Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer. Maybe Rune Blades?

[shao32]

snip

yoshi recognice WAR and SCH are pretty over in utility, all jobs go to recibe changes in 4.0 and WAR and SCH are not exception in order to make a better balance and dont repeat this situation again, buffs and nerfs go to come for equal to all jobs, they cant just buff everything to WAR/SCH level , its called balance for a reason