square please challenge us a little

[Nestama]

Now if we have these dungeons be more difficult yet designed to be cleared reliably on a daily basis, the rewards NEED to match this curve, or they wont even be run in the first place. I mean... would YOU run weeping City every day for ilvl 200-215 gear? Didn't think so.

I think most players run Weeping City once a week (with Void Ark if they're still in need of upgrading gear). The dungeons themselves don't need to be overly challenging, just... engaging and not obnoxious (bosses that make themselves untergetable and/or make the floor ice. That's annoying), but also have mechanics that punish the player for ignoring them (punishment varies).

[Fluffernuff]

I think most players run Weeping City once a week (with Void Ark if they're still in need of upgrading gear). The dungeons themselves don't need to be overly challenging, just... engaging and not obnoxious (bosses that make themselves untergetable and/or make the floor ice. That's annoying), but also have mechanics that punish the player for ignoring them (punishment varies).

That's exactly what I mean. would you be satisfied with a weeping city equivalent of 4-man dungeon you "have" to run with outdated rewards? every day? thats the sort of thing we need to think about when we think of dungeon difficulty. their longevity is directly tied to roulettes- being repeated daily.

I've seen way too many bails on trial roulette seconds after seeing nidhogg's ugly mug to be convinced difficulty is something we need more of in our daily grinds

[Kurogaea]

That's exactly what I mean. would you be satisfied with a weeping city equivalent of 4-man dungeon you "have" to run with outdated rewards? every day? thats the sort of thing we need to think about when we think of dungeon difficulty. their longevity is directly tied to roulettes- being repeated daily.

I've seen way too many bails on trial roulette seconds after seeing nidhogg's ugly mug to be convinced difficulty is something we need more of in our daily grinds

I think your idea of difficulty is rather limited to what FF14 see difficulty as, mechanic heavy and tedious. In your typical 24-man raid you follow the path, see groups of baddies, nuke them down, nothing special, follow path, boss, do a buttload of things to find a way to kill them, including standing on a puddle you would have no idea what it does till you die and realize it saves you from instant death. <--- I'm not asking for that. Thats not difficulty, thats just testing your patience with your teammates and vice versa, though its a challenge of its own when you put it that way.

Challenging dungeons give the player trials (I don't mean BOSS FIGHTS), things we've seen in the game but mixed up. Found a crescent shape, use said key to open a symbol'd door. Not all of it has to be extensively long. Afterall, once you run a dungeon once, your prone to get the pattern down and it will become a speedrun overtime. "Got this key this time? Door's this way." Its not unheard of.

Anyways your saying dungeons are meant to be quick for dungeon gear, ok. I'd buy that more if we didn't already have sooooooooo many other options. You have tomestones, raids, hunts, and crafting. Tomestones are actually easy to get regardless of dungeon difficulty. As always the longest dungeons get the most tomestones, like that last lvl 50 dungeons for the story (cant remember the name right now). Nidhogg is only avoided because relying on players to be on point for the entire fight is not worth the time and effort for what little award you get. If you say that helping others is the award itself, then I guess running the same steamrolled dungeon 4 times over just so others can get their rewards is just as rewarding. It isn't, it just wastes your time.

Speaking of which the reward system itself is somewhat broken. If they WERE going to make more challenging dungeons, they'd have to compensate by adding more chests and rewards in the dungeon, makes sense? The more pathways the more chances of loot too, which means more chances. Personally to me, chance can go suck it as Guild Wars 2 and Phantasy Star Online 2 said, but this wouldn't be a problem.

So yeah, other ways to get gear, more rewards because monotony/hallway is broken, Not asking for FFXIV idea of challenging. Quick example: Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. All puzzles can be solved with one person and once you know the dungeons, its a breeze.

[Nestama]

snip

If they made a Raid Roulette and I got Weeping City every time, of course I would. A Weeping City equivalent dungeon would actually be pretty decent, as most wipes caused in Weeping City are due to alliances screwing over other alliances. Forgall is only hard because of Hell Wind and those 'stand on it' AoEs (harder to deal with if the tank doesn't tank Forgall in the middle) and Ozma is only hard because a player in another/your alliance will place a Meteor in the wrong place, players stacking in Triangle phase (don't do this. Every attack Ozma does selects a random person and it's an AoE + Bleed), doing actions during countdown and tanks not getting hit by orbs during Cube phase (ignoring them activates Supernova). They're otherwise very easy fights, but they require you to actually do the mechanic correctly.

If you were to put Forgall and Ozma into a dungeon environment, they'd most likely be easier.

As for Nidhogg... if there's a newbie, just explain bits of the fight. Get the priority on which add to attack first down ASAP and tell the newbie to watch out for Nidhogg's Eye AoE's (that happen after he glows or whatever), as they're sort of the same colour as the ground. Any other attack is sort of self-explanatory when seen (and SE were kind enough to make Akh Morn have the 'stack' marker, which should be common knowledge by now).