Should PLD and WAR get gap-closers at 70?

[Reynhart]

casters can burn sprint on cd. dps are all chomping at the bit, either letting their buffs drop while their cds go unused as they inch up bit by bit behind the waddling tank or rushing ahead and then running back with aggro and hoping the tank is happy to pull of them rather than get salty about pre-pulling. it isn't about catching up, it's about efficient CD use as a group.

It's especially fine we don't have a gap closer in this situation. Let them pull, let them die, let them learn respect for tanks.

[Tint]

the problem with pulling with the gap closer is that the gap closer has no enmity bonus, neither have the first hit of the aggro combo an enmity bonus. you still have to pull with your ranged attack, because it has the enmity bonus you need to hold aggro against the dps-openers until your aggro combo moves in. and if you pull with your ranged attack the enemy will already move towards you and you jump with your gap closer the range of around 1y and stuck in the animation lock for the same time you would need to walk the distance.

it is a nice skill, but nothing every tank should have because it's sooo imbalanced. the skill is not that great in practice as you maybe think.

[SpookyGhost]

I've been saying this from the beginning: If MCH has a gun, why doesn't PLD?

Give PLD a gun 2016.

[Dzian]

I really wish the Tank meta wasn't so DpS obsessed. It is rather saddening to see utility abilities used more for a ~7 potency per sec increase rather than their actual utility.

This I can agree with. but it's the same for all classes really. can't tell you how many times I've tried to stun something and.

I wish that went for all classes. So many great stun opportunities are wrecked by everyone using their stuns on CD for the dps increase.

This.

Sadly DPS is the only thing that ever matters. healing and mitigation are both total jokes. hence even healers spend 95% of there time doing dps.....

more to the op's topic though don't really need a gap closer but I do wish tempered will had a lower cooldown

[Khalithar]

No. Copying other job's mechanics is boring.

Depends on the MMO.

In swtor, 2/3 tanks have a Charge style move that brings them to a group of enemies instantly while the third tank has a short cooldown speed boost that it can use for the same purpose. In WoW it's the same way, two of the tanks have a charge while the other has the option of a ranged attack that gives it a short speed boost.

Despite having the gap closer, none of those classes really play the same. They have different mechanics, different abilities, and different playstyles. Giving all the tanks a gap closer and a taunt/provoke move isn't to homogenize the game or give mechanics to other classes, it's to give the classes the basic tools to do their job correctly. You shouldn't view a gap closer as a drk-only mechanic, it should be seen as a necessary tool for tanks.

That being said however, I don't really think Pld or War really needs one with the way the game is currently. I can't think of any situation where I needed to immediately get to an enemy where it would have made a difference. But you should also understand the difference between the gap closer in those games vs Plunge. In the other games, Charge has a minimum distance you need to be away from an enemy to use it and is on the GCD, in this game it's an oGCD ability that can be used as an extra attack. The ability to instantly jump on an add before it hits a healer in those games (since in those games there are no attacks like Tomahawk/Shield Lob/Unmend) and build immediate threat is absolutely critical to playing those tanks.

Lastly though, a short cooldown, on the global cooldown, minimum distance required, bull rush style move for warriors that generates a stack or two for their stance would actually fit the overall theme of the class in my opinion.

[Lyth]

snip

It would seem that you have me at a bit of a disadvantage, sir. You seem quite overly familiar with me, whereas I haven't the foggiest idea who you are. I'm not sure how I have previously given offence or why you are so heated on the matter, but since you've addressed me directly, I'll see if I can shed some clarity on my post.

I don't recall ever saying that WAR is "poorly designed". The general consensus here and elsewhere is that WAR is very well designed (perhaps a bit too well designed).

Similarly, a lot of the same people would argue that DRK lacks synergy and is designed quite poorly. I wouldn't go out of my way to contest this. I love my "poorly designed" DRK. Some people prefer automatic, others prefer to drive manual. Perhaps I'm contrarian in my tastes, but that's certainly not open for you or anyone else to decide.

If you look at the list that I put out (my favourite things), only two of the abilities listed are actually taken from WAR's kit. Having been a WAR main for nearly two years prior to HW, I can tell you that outside of their self-heals, I have little interest in borrowing their skills (you can give Path/Eye to PLD, if you really must find another tank job to share them with). PLD, on the other hand, has some amazing utility skills that are frequently overshadowed by players' fixation on dps. I can think of plenty of instances in progression where I would love to have access to DV or Hallowed.

When you play a tank job, you'll always miss having skills on the other jobs, forcing you to adapt or play differently. I don't think it's unfair to point out all of the advantages that each tank brings, when you choose to single out one of the few utility skills in DRKs kit that truly outshines its equivalents on other tank jobs.

[aleph_null]

Lastly though, a short cooldown, on the global cooldown, minimum distance required, bull rush style move for warriors that generates a stack or two for their stance would actually fit the overall theme of the class in my opinion.

While that might be funny to see/use, giving a stack would probably be really powerful. If it gives 1 stack, you can do OT 3 cleave opener without waiting 1 minute.

[Xenosan]

They all have their different pros and cons in mobility. DRK can't resist a knockback, it'd be nice if Plunge could remove heavy and/or bind, but like DRG DFD/SSD no dice. DRK can place a heavier finger on the sprint but I feel. I would like WAR to get +mobility eventually too.

And Featherfoot for Monk.. It should remove Heavy: Featherfoot, heavy, these two status effects do not make sense on a status bar simultaneously, and it'd breath a little more life into that CD if it could nullify that CC. All jobs should have some degree of cc-recovery imo.

[Jonnycbad]

Sure. In exchange, I'll take Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle, off-gcd stance swaps, Spirits Within, an on-demand stun, a magic damage version of Cover, Sheltron, Fight or Flight, Divine Veil, and an invincibility move that isn't healer dependent.

DRK has self heals with Souleater.

Thrill of Battle doesn't last that long, and DRK has a fulltime 20% damage taken tank stance
Spirits Within? Plunge is a 30s 200potency (SW rarely does 300 potency cuz PLD are always taking damage), Carve and Spit/Dark Passenger/Plunge more or less make up for Spirits Within
On Demand Stun? DRK has Low Blow and WAR has Brutal Swing, you made GCD stun? Because oGCD is better IMO because it can be used in the middle of a combo.
Darkside is better than FoF because it's fulltime
Divine Veil is basically Stoneskin II for the party that doesn't hit you, it's miniscule damage at best, Respite/Delirium more or less makes up for that.
Walking Dead has the potential to last what 19 seconds of death immunity of handeled properly?

Having PLD or WAR get a gap closer with longer recasts than Plunge would be fine. By the way, if all jobs are getting 5 new abilities 62-70, I'm sure the 3 tanks will be getting their own versions of eachother's skills eventually. Maybe DRK will get a Drain spell that deals 350 potency damage that heals you for double the amount to make it similar to Clemency, and maybe WAR will get an oGCD Sheltron for Parry that reflects 10% of the damage taken back at the target, etc...

[Lyth]

snip

Souleater's heal is locked behind Grit. You need to spend about 12 GCDs in Grit and use DA 4 times to reproduce the effect of a single oGCD use of Equilibrium. ToB, IB, and SE are additional self heals unique to WAR's kit. Self-healing also happens to be the main weakness in DRK's kit at the moment, which is significant given the fact that our invincibility move is also very healer dependent (moreso after the 3.2 tank changes). I'm not really looking forward to soloing 200 levels of PotD on DRK in 3.45.

Spirits Within is more than just an oGCD. It's also a silence. Mechanics which demand a silence or wipe do come up every so often (A6S/A8S), and having a tank that is also capable of doing it is an asset. On-demand stuns have a similar value (hint: it's in the name). The ability to chain stun a mob is fairly powerful (A7S being the most recent example), and traited Shield Bash is a 6s stun. Historically, there have been fights where this feature has rendered a PLD stunlock nearly mandatory (we could go into a discussion on PvP here too, but let's save that for another time).

Comparing FoF and Darkside doesn't really make a whole lot of a sense, especially after the damage reduction on ShO was reduced to 15% and given the bonus autos of SwO. Darkside works more like maim. Between FoF and Berserk, FoF is the stronger of the two damage buffs. BW is our closest equivalent, but it doesn't really have the same multiplicative interaction with skills that the other two buffs have. This might be for the best, though, as the oGCD priority system on DRK isn't really designed to sync up all that well.

DV is an incredible raid utility skill, if you know how to use it effectively (if you don't, sit down with your healers and ask them where you need to be using it). From the progression standpoint of a DRK main, your decision to swap to PLD on a given fight comes down to how many mechanics you can cheese with DV and Hallowed. If you can manage without them, you go DRK for dps (and fun, but don't tell your raid group that). Things get a bit less clear cut if you don't have a melee specialist who knows how to play MNK, but it's probably the easiest of the three melee jobs to pick up at the moment.

LD isn't 19 seconds of immunity (I'm not really sure where people get this idea from). Timing it is significantly easier than Holmgang in that you have to narrow your impending death down to a 10 second window, rather than guessing precisely. But both LD and Hallowed give you a full 10 seconds of immunity once the activation period starts. The trade-off is a two minute shorter recast on LD, versus complete damage negation (and debuff negation) on Hallowed. There are situations in which Hallowed does not confer an additional advantage, but it definitely is the more powerful skill.

The point of this isn't that we should make every tank clones of each other. There are definite differences in utility and dps between the three, and there will always be times where you will benefit from swapping out of your preferred job to meet the design requirements of the fight. Putting a gap closer on every tank isn't going to make you into a better tank. Studying each of the three tanks and learning how to take advantage of their individual strengths on a case by case basis will.

I've been saying this from the beginning: If MCH has a gun, why doesn't PLD?

This. But why settle for guns when you can have gunblades?