I think Enmity generation in early content still needs tuning adjustments

[Launched]

People who are saying there's no issue here and that fresh tanks should "git gud" may not have started lvling up a tank from scratch after the changes made to tanks some patches ago.

I leveled GLA in 2.0 before Flash got a 20% buff to enmity generation and never had any problems, even though I'd never played an MMO before. Enmity shouldn't be a problem to anyone that's decently geared, and if it somehow is a problem then that's the player's fault.

The guy was doing the correct threat rotation, he couldn't do anything more to keep aggro. Fast blade - Savage blade on single targets, spam flash and rotating fast blade - savage blade between targets on groups, and he used FoF on CD.

2x Flash generates nearly 50% more enmity than Fast Blade > Savage Blade (1200 vs 850). If someone is losing aggro through Flash/Unleash/Overpower spam even in single target, they definitely aren't "fairly well geared".

[Freyyy]

I leveled GLA in 2.0 before Flash got a 20% buff to enmity generation and never had any problems, even though I'd never played an MMO before. Enmity shouldn't be a problem to anyone that's decently geared, and if it somehow is a problem then that's the player's fault.

At this time the playerbase was still figuring the game out, so most of the players you got with (even the high level ones) most likely didn't play perfectly at all (losing GCD uptime, losing AAs by not paying attention to the character's orientation, etc). There still is players like this nowadays but generally when the tank loses aggro it is to someone who plays correctly and deals actually good damage, unless they are just not doing their job, but it's not the subject here.

I'd also like to add that if flash got a 20% enmity boost it is for a reason. Just because naturally skilled players such as you or myself never had problems keeping aggro at low levels doesn't mean that every single average and lower player should struggle like hell to do so, especially during lower levels. It's not end-game, or raiding we're talking about, it's the levelling system and the overall learning experience of the game. The difficulty of keeping aggro in this game is completely backwards. The first levels are much harder than the max level.

2x Flash generates nearly 50% more enmity than Fast Blade > Savage Blade (1200 vs 850). If someone is losing aggro through Flash/Unleash/Overpower spam even in single target, they definitely aren't "fairly well geared".

Flash spam isn't unlimited, and to refill these MP you need to use a move with no enmity multiplier. I'm fairly certain that F.Blade > S.Blade deals more enmity over time than Flash spam -> R.Blade to refill MP, while obviously also dealing more damage. Overpower spam is really TP starving at low level since you don't have any free oGCD (IB/Cyclone/FC/Decimate) nor Equilibrium. Even on a group of mobs you'll rarely "spam" OP, you'll just use it 2-3 times and rotate single target enmity. Spamming it too much leads you into TP-starving and having to wait for TP regen each GCD, leading into less DPS and less enmity over time. I don't see your point here, it doesn't make any sense.

[KorenA]

Actually correction, I leveled a tank after the changes on gilg and still keep aggro fine WITHOUT cross class skills.

[NRhodes]

Well problem is, sub-lv. 26 for GLD/PLD has horrid aggro-generation (lowest in-game - also note that Unleash 6x aggro and Overpower 5x aggro multipliers and it being AoE based crush 3.5x on Savage Blade (2 GCDs vs 1 for WAR/DRK) and a 0x multiplier on GLD/PLD only AoE w/ Flash), compared to MNKs who can only auto-crit Bootshine @ that point in the game, BRDs who have some of the highest crit %s and BLMs who just have ridiculous potency for their level. So of course, DRK/WAR have little to no problem with holding aggro at low levels, where as, as a GLD I can pull the last boss in Copperbell Mines - Shield Lob into Fight or Flight + Savage Blade spam and as Fight or Flight falls off, even though I'm spamming Savage Blade against a BRD and MNK doing their normal dps, I will lose, every day of the week.

Just another one of those classes who in reality, need a rework for lower levels, but will probably never get it. You just have to bare and grin through it until you get to 40+.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Well problem is, sub-lv. 26 for GLD/PLD has horrid aggro-generation (lowest in-game - also note that Unleash 6x aggro and Overpower 5x aggro multipliers and it being AoE based crush 3.5x on Savage Blade (2 GCDs vs 1 for WAR/DRK) and a 0x multiplier on GLD/PLD only AoE w/ Flash),.

Flash generates 600 potency worth of enmity roughly equal to a non-crit Overpower (120 potency x5 enmity), Unleash (100 x6 enmity) or Abyssal Drain (120 x5 enmity) so the potency of the action is not the problem.

[whiteblade89]

I support the idea of switching the level rewards for SwO and ShO. I think that alone would alleviate some of the PLD levelling struggles without potentially breaking the enmity system already in place (which works fine at end game, imo).

[PrincessNuri]

Snip.

A few days ago on my gladiator lvl 43, I had some i230 geared DPS in low level dungeons helping their healer friend. I never lost aggro once at any boss fight. Maybe during aoe splashes of mobs once or twice but never on bosses. If I can do it, that tank needs to learn to switch targets and pay attention to aggro meters and hit flash if he needs it. I don't even have poetic gear and can still tank.

I know some tanks that think if they use flash they hold aggro indefinitely like previous MMOs but that is their error. I agree hall of novice needs to teach tanks how to watch aggro meters and healers jot to over heal. I actually met a tank on my DPS that didn't know about aggro meters at Pharos Sirius... ridiculous. Most definitely a "git gud" issue. Especially if he is losing aggro to an AST. Even if you over heal it shouldn't be losing aggro so easily.

[Brannigan]

Level 43 paladin has FoF, Shield Oath, and Rage of Halone so it's just a couple of off-GCDs short of a max level character as far as enmity potential goes. Even if you weren't using the soulstone and were a gladiator (why), Rage of Halone is still way better than pre-26. Also i230 gear level syncs and isn't necessarily indicative of a stellar player. If anything, it's the opposite - at this point in a patch, if you're not full 240 from welfare upgrades then it's not your main class or you haven't been playing.

I don't really think paladin (or any tank) needs any low level enmity boosts, but it isn't that hard to steal hate from a newbie tank just by hitting a button every gcd.

[Claire_Pendragon]

I leveled GLA in 2.0 before Flash got a 20% buff to enmity generation and never had any problems, even though I'd never played an MMO before. Enmity shouldn't be a problem to anyone that's decently geared, and if it somehow is a problem then that's the player's fault.

it was FAR greater than 20%.
The GCD for spells was 3 seconds (so 0.5s was added between abilities, allowing great single target DPS like MNK to land more abilities per GCD, you could never hold hate over a MNK if you used flash more than twice (pre RoH), unless that MNK sucked.)
(Also was 3.5s in beta)
The enmity modifier to AoEs was only x2 in 2.0, and was raised to x3, then x5, and currently PLD and DRK I believe are x6 (Might be wrong on the x6)
Unless your whole team was using AoEs, flash was a guaranteed way to lose all threat.
The ONLY reason you ever used flash, was because 1 flash was enough to hold hate over being cured, due to cure having almost no threat generation. (except regen for soem reason having the current threat generation of today) You landed a 2nd Flash, in case people spread DoTs, or the healer DPSed.


Side note, gear syncing down is higher in item level than the gear u get from dungeons.
As a Lv15 GLA in Sastasha (new character), higher geared MNKs easily raced me in threat with the Aetherial iLv16 sword that comes from there.
With the iLv15 sword from the quest, a good MNK would easily pull ahead in threat on a boss fight half way into it.

I received an NQ sword from the main story somewhere around Lv20-22, and when I synced down, my threat was MUCH higher, and the same MNKs werent even close to me in threat anymore.

So it's possible to be decently geared, and still not be "geared enough".

Also, Before the modifier to AoE threat, I could ALWAYS, 100% of the time, generate more threat than a pre-RoH GLA. (And any WAR who didnt maintain maim at the end of a fight, to carry over into the start of the next)
I'm not really sure if I could do it now, as the only people I've tested it on, were random people in duty finder (Still held hate over them). But I havnt requested any skilled players to sync down and try their luck.

[Jpec07]

Having recently farmed a few of the beginning dungeons?

Actually yeah, I can agree. Enmity is kinda scarce. Keep in mind, I know what I'm doing on all three tanks, but the last few times I've tanked pre-30 dungeons, it's felt like a struggle to keep my enmity lead (especially with an ACN/SCH/SMN or BLM that knows what they're doing). I think there should be some challenge there, and I can't remember if it was this way in 2.x or not, but I don't feel like I should be having to spam Flash/Unleash/Overpower half a dozen times to get a stable enmity lead. Asking people to wait for three sunders isn't going to work here. I don't think it should be a walk in the park, but I do feel like it's likely very unforgiving, especially to new tanks.