I think Enmity generation in early content still needs tuning adjustments

[MirielleLavandre]

I main healer and have a dps @60 as well, just now taking DRK up to 60 (I had PLD stuck at 50). Spending some time in the lowbie dungeons I think one of the main issues is that synched down players are playing their dps roles just as they would in expert: i.e. putting out as much dmg as possible without regard for the enmity meter since it doesn't matter at high level, usually. If a new tank comes into this type of player in Sastasha, Tam Tara, Halatali, etc., they are likely to have to fight more with the enmity of their party mates than the mobs/bosses, as others have mentioned.

I don't think the problem is enmity modifiers or such (though PLD could use just a tad more, maybe) -- I think the real issue lies with the party not playing the dungeon with a mind towards helping the tank. Instead of going all out because you think you're not being a proper dps if you don't put up the highest dps you can, why not look at the enmity meter next to the mobs and if you see yourself close to taking aggro, attempt to change target, use an enmity lowering skill, or something similar? We know that if you take aggro and will kill the mob in the next second or 2 it doesn't matter, but taking and keeping aggro will always be detrimental to new tanks who are trying their best. Sure, getting a little provoke practice in is all good now and then, but the way the starting dungeons are made, and the parties I've had with new tanks there as both healer and dps (and tanking them myself), the enmity "problem" is more to do with people not caring about how they are making the experience for the tank who is struggling to learn and/or even just hold hate.

As Aethys said above -- this kind of thing just turns people off from tanking and is one of the major reason there is always such a shortage. Who wants to always have an uphill battle in a dungeon against not just the mobs, but your own party? Of course people will choose the much easier route of dps or even healing instead of having to be responsible for pulling and holding hate vs. overzealous dps or healer spam. People just need to be more mindful in the starting dungeons about their own enmity, and adjust accordingly. Note that this doesn't apply to later and HW dungeons where tanks should hardly, if ever, lose aggro with their tank stance and more skills.

[Fluffernuff]

Honestly, I'm more against the principle than the actual numbers or situation.

The game has 3 roles. so any content that is DESIGNED for those 3 roles and doesnt fulfill them, or ideas or mentalities that encourage it, I am firmly against.

I agree to the extent that tanking shouldn't be so easy that no one learns. we honestly have enough of that, even at 60. the "perfect" sytem we have where everyone needs to just "git gud" already isn't working, guys. Lest we forget the quality of "DF Tanks".

However, i am firmly and adamantly against the current state of tanking entry. your FIRST REQUIRED GROUP ACTIVITY....... and youre dead weight. honestly and truly. theres not a single boss, mechanic, or otherwise that a DPS cant facetank as well as if not better than a dedicated tank- and they hit harder. That is just so... wrong in my mind. On top of being new, having little experience, and CLEARLY failing in the role you're assigned... I've witnessed on multiple occasions open redicule, not unlike the "git gud" mentality we have going on.

all this culminates to there being less tanks in general, and even then, the quality tends to be seen as sub-par. Alot of that could be mitigated if the very FIRST experience in the role wasn't such a barrier. healers dont need to be constantly healing, DPS really cant go wrong doing anything, but tanks? they need to have the best possible gear, they need to move fast enough for impatient DF players, they have little to no freedom in what to do, and the effective/only way to actually do their role? use 1 button. period. on everything. ever. even LANCER has more freedom than that!

fun might be suggestive. alot of you might play this game like a job. sastasha-haukke might be useless content. but it means the world to newbies, and has more repercussions than i think people here give enough thought to. having less tanks is bad thing when theyre required to access content. i mean, theres even a freaking post still being replied to here on the first page about how tanks leaving queues ruins things for the 3 other people. making it harder for newbie tanks to even WANT to tank and learn only makes that pool larger. makes that "horror story" much more common. there will be less tanks to go around and make the % of that pool that dont care that much larger as a result.

Whether or not you all agree with it, there NEEDS to be a smoother entry to tanking than there already is. "DF Tanks" or "impairment to fun" will only be more and more the norm if we cling to this mentality we have now.

I'm not saying give them every tool they need by 18. I'm not saying give them a tank stance that early. I'm not saying hold their hand. I'm not saying give them a grenade launcher that 1-shots everything in a 60y range. but there needs to be SOME padding. they at least need to COMFORTABLY fulfill their ROLE, even at such a low level

[Awful]

Whether or not you all agree with it, there NEEDS to be a smoother entry to tanking than there already is. "DF Tanks" or "impairment to fun" will only be more and more the norm if we cling to this mentality we have now.

Honestly they just need to include a quest/duty at lvl 15 for your class (glad/war/even drk if it's your first tank) to throw you into an instanced version of Hall of Novice that gives you a green weapon and off hand (if you're a pld). This would show tanks to use their enmity skills and how to utilize them in different scenarios, this would be equivalent to WoWs trial before you do mythics/heroics it serves the same purpose readying the player before their role.

There's only so much hand holding MMOs can do for people but my honest opinion as a tank main is that there's no issues with threat even with an alt that I had in Satasha with no Hall of Novice gear I had no issues with people who were sync'd. Yeah I have lvl 60 tanks, and I know what i'm doing, but being a lvl 15 gladiator in Satasha with no green items and 1 ring I still had an easy time so people that are that lvl/gear should be having the same time.

[Jandor]

It doesn't really matter in pre-30 dungeons. You don't really need a tank at all for them to be honest.

If I lose something in those I tend to just leave it, I'm probably not getting it back before it's dead.

[Claire_Pendragon]

It doesn't really matter in pre-30 dungeons. You don't really need a tank at all for them to be honest.

If I lose something in those I tend to just leave it, I'm probably not getting it back before it's dead.

While its not fun, nor does it feel good, but this is honestly the best attitude to have when u dont have either your 3rd hit combo, or tank stance.

[Loggos]

I second Fluffernuff's posts. As others mentioned if you are in a low-level dungeon with an overgeared crowd and you lose aggro it will probably not cause a detrimental effect. I love pld but those low-level dungeons sure feel even more like chores than when I play other classes. If you have an understanding group and you lose aggro they won't mind&just burn the mobs but you’ll feel a bit expandable. It doesn't bother ME but if you are new those dungeons are supposed to be your learning stage. I don't say "handfeed" people but making sth more approachable=/=handfeeding. If you are a new gladiator/paladin you will either have an extra layer of stress to an already relatively stressful role, when you maybe don't know your job well enough yet. Or your group is so good that you don't really need to go through your rotations/have fewer learning moments and you clear the dungeon anyways. Compared to other classes for a NEW player this might be off-putting, esp. if this lasts till 40.

[repoe]

Ehhh it's fine, it's the syncING that causes new lower level tanks to struggle. Even tho they are synced say to level 35 that person is still outputting more dmg then someone who is lvl 35

[KorenA]

Here we go again...tank aggro is fine, get good.

[Sicno]

People who are saying there's no issue here and that fresh tanks should "git gud" may not have started lvling up a tank from scratch after the changes made to tanks some patches ago.

They lowered the tanks' attack power (and they also made VIT contribute to their damage and at the same rate as STR, but that's irrelevant to this discussion). This would also lower tank enmity and instead of adjusting the enmity multipliers on the skills they decided to increase the enmity on tank stances (shield oath, defiance and grit). So because of this change tanking at lower lvls before you get your tank stance is harder now than it used to be back in the day, even if you're properly geared. PLDs get the worst of it. They already had a tougher job pre-nerf, now it's hell.

While tank vets may adjust to the current situation it's super harsh for new players as it is, and it's super discouraging to keep losing aggro every now and then. I've made a few alts after the change and I can testify that it's a lot harder than it used to be.

[Freyyy]

snip

Some days ago, I did a low level roulette and I got into the level 17 Tam-Tara story mode as an AST (level 55ish synced down). The Gladiator was fairly well geared for its level but was constantly losing aggro to me, solely DPSing in C.Stance the whole time and just healed him when he was in the 10-15% HP range back to full HP with only 1 to 2 spells. In every single pull I was tanking at least 1 to 2 mobs, and during the final boss he literally STRUGGLED like HELL to keep aggro, sometimes he lost it, then got it back, then lost it again etc... So much that I kept standing in melee range to prevent the boss from moving. The guy was doing the correct threat rotation, he couldn't do anything more to keep aggro. Fast blade - Savage blade on single targets, spam flash and rotating fast blade - savage blade between targets on groups, and he used FoF on CD.

So yeah. I don't think that they just have to "Git gud". Since the tank AP change, it has become quite challenging to keep aggro for beginner tanks until they get their tanking stance, especially for Gladiators. A small tweak would be nice. Either give the tanking stance at level 15 (first dungeon ?), or add a low level small enmity boost as a passive trait to every tank class.