Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

[Iromi]

^ Wait tho, how did Tera do it then? The fights were super challenging at end game and I did them with random people. But it would get to the point where I had to kite, reraise myself, and raise others over and over. They were long, difficult, butt clenching fights but we did it lol.

This games problem with raiding is it allows for no recovery. Sometimes that can be the most challenging aspect of a battle..and the most fun. Shame that they left that out of this game...

[Hyperia]

This games problem with raiding is it allows for no recovery. Sometimes that can be the most challenging aspect of a battle..and the most fun. Shame that they left that out of this game...

THIS... so much THIS.

Many of my fondest memories of raiding in other games are the amazing come from behind, save the day victories. We were able to use what resources we had remaining to hold the boss off, stop DPS so a phase wouldn't progress and bring everybody back. So much fun, was it hard, yea, was it rough, yea, would I do it again?

Yes.

What I believe players don't like most of all are unforgiving, harsh and penalizing mechanics with no hope of recovery if you or anybody makes the most minor of mistakes. Mechanics like that (Looking at you A3S) make people turn on each other and break apart groups, and we don't want that. That isn't hard level raiding, that's just plain mean.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

^ Wait tho, how did Tera do it then? The fights were super challenging at end game and I did them with random people. But it would get to the point where I had to kite, reraise myself, and raise others over and over. They were long, difficult, butt clenching fights but we did it lol.

This games problem with raiding is it allows for no recovery. Sometimes that can be the most challenging aspect of a battle..and the most fun. Shame that they left that out of this game...

Mhm. I feel this is a big part of the issue. Even if you still ultimately lose, being able to almost turn around a wipe is both exhilarating and motivating because you have some assurance if you do make a mistake, it can be salvaged. One of my fondest memories is back in an old JRPG where I was vastly underleveled and assumed I couldn't beat the final boss only to win with just my last character alive. With Savage, you have to be borderline perfect or the whole party wipes. That's already at first, but once the wipes start to pile on, it becomes increasingly frustrating. At least in my opinion.

[Kallera]

Mhm. I feel this is a big part of the issue. Even if you still ultimately lose, being able to almost turn around a wipe is both exhilarating and motivating because you have some assurance if you do make a mistake, it can be salvaged...

Totally agree. I never liked that part of this game's design for wipes, where people are just left with killing themselves, and the overreliance of hard enrages dooming an attempt before the players know it.

[bass9020]

Mhm. I feel this is a big part of the issue. Even if you still ultimately lose, being able to almost turn around a wipe is both exhilarating and motivating because you have some assurance if you do make a mistake, it can be salvaged. One of my fondest memories is back in an old JRPG where I was vastly underleveled and assumed I couldn't beat the final boss only to win with just my last character alive. With Savage, you have to be borderline perfect or the whole party wipes. That's already at first, but once the wipes start to pile on, it becomes increasingly frustrating. At least in my opinion.

Agree 100%. One person dying in a fight literally makes it a almost no recovery and starting over is what usually happens, I don't see any reason for this. Sometimes I even wonder what is the point of raise spells when raising someone mid battle won't even matter most of the time. I know some fights can be recovered but majority of the time they can't and hearing people say oh just wipe makes me think why is that even an option?

[ADVSS]

Agree 100%. One person dying in a fight literally makes it a almost no recovery and starting over is what usually happens, I don't see any reason for this. Sometimes I even wonder what is the point of raise spells when raising someone mid battle won't even matter most of the time. I know some fights can be recovered but majority of the time they can't and hearing people say oh just wipe makes me think why is that even an option?

Cant agree more, another reason to not raid, the pressure on memorizing the mechanics and executing them perfectly, where no matter how skilled a person is, they wont be able to make a difference if an "accident" occurs on another players behalf. A lot of instances are like this

[loreleidiangelo]

Agree 100%. One person dying in a fight literally makes it a almost no recovery and starting over is what usually happens, I don't see any reason for this. Sometimes I even wonder what is the point of raise spells when raising someone mid battle won't even matter most of the time. I know some fights can be recovered but majority of the time they can't and hearing people say oh just wipe makes me think why is that even an option?

It's certainly not like this with raids in other games, I can assure you. SE's raid design, rewards, and structure are probably some of the worst I have ever seen in any game that actually bothers with having an endgame raid option.

[Cidel]

Mhm. I feel this is a big part of the issue. Even if you still ultimately lose, being able to almost turn around a wipe is both exhilarating and motivating because you have some assurance if you do make a mistake, it can be salvaged.

Was going to stay out of this topic, but since the conversation turned this way, I need to chime-in with how much I also feel this is a huge turn-off on current raids (and some EX fights even).

Heck, on Ifrit in 1.2x, our linkshell literally had a couple runs where everyone but a Bard of all things would wipe, but since Bard had access to Conjurer and Thaumaturge's cross-class skills in 1.xx it could raise people while kiting Ifrit around the arena while avoiding eruptions and plumes. It was an amazing feeling keeping the fight alive by a thread (especially since re-entry would require more farmed tokens to get back in). I don't think such a thing is plausible in FFXIV as it is now, which is a shame.

[BlitzAceRush]

Snip

I agree, while many others in this thread have raised other valid concerns, I feel making fights recoverable, not easier would go a long way to help fights feeling more rewarding.

Of all the fights I've done in XIV, my most memorable was my first time in The Aetherochemical Research Facility. It was early days so no guide and so I went in blind, ended up with a party of people who'd already done it before, when I asked anything I needed to know I was simply told "Don't die" We got to Lahabrea & Igeyorhm and only a little into the fight the ninja bites it, followed quickly by the tank, leaving me as the healer and our Black mage as I'd just swift rezed the ninja but he was unable to avoid an aoe due to the animation and went right back down. We danced for another minute while I looked for an opening in the aoe's to get someone back up. Eventually the Black mage valiantly face tanked to buy me time, falling just as I got the tank on her feet. From here I was able to keep her up while slowly getting the others back. The fight lasted ages but we fully recovered and went on to beat phase 2 first try as well. It was the most fun and most memorable moment I've had in a fight so far.

Everyone made mistakes there, the Ninja for face tanking aoe's to do more damage, the Tank for not just blowing cool downs early, me for using my instant rez when the tank was just about to die, well the Black Mage didn't really make a mistake, that brave, brave soul... But we were able to use what we had, a little skill and a lot of luck to pull back something that most would have just given up on. Hell the tank and Ninja told us to wipe it, they were as surprised as us that it worked. But that just made it feel all the better.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

snip.

I don't think it was just the game change that no longer made that sort of strategy possible. It seems the devs don't want people to drag out the fight or cheese it in any way whatsoever, so now we got fights where you either jump the rope perfectly or you wipe. Or beat the boss quickly or you wipe from enrage.