Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

[Judge_Xero]

You'd be correct to assume the maths of Thunder is a mess considering it's a DoT spell so it gets a bit more from Spell Speed and we stack it like no one ever was

Not to mention that there are a few things that I have not seen tested.

1: SS Increases DOT "Potency" Direct Modifier to it.
2: The Next Thunder X will add it's full damage over time amount to it's initial damage - Is this value altered by the change to Thunder Dot Potency.

Example
T3 - with 1150 SS. Say this value changes the DoT Potency to 44.4 from 40/tick.

Would the T3 Proc be worth:
425.2 + 355.2 = 780 Potency

compared to at 354 SS:
390 + 320 = 710

Or

390 + 355.2 = 745.2
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All of which are fairly significant.

[StouterTaru]

1: SS Increases DOT "Potency" Direct Modifier to it.
2: The Next Thunder X will add it's full damage over time amount to it's initial damage - Is this value altered by the change to Thunder Dot Potency.

1: 1% reduction in your base GCD = 1% increase in DoT potency
2: The initial damage of spells are not affected, even thunderclouds

Also, haste abilities (ley lines, arrow, fey wind, etc) don't do anything for DoT tick potency.

[Krindor]

Not to mention that there are a few things that I have not seen tested.

1: SS Increases DOT "Potency" Direct Modifier to it.

This might be me understanding your question wrong, but wouldn't this be easily done by adding Dervy's formula for DoT damage increase and mulitplying it with the potency?

Taking your example of T3, multiplying the formula to the potency we get 1.1031*40 = 44.1233 potency. As for the 2nd thing I have no idea but would be interesting to test.

[Aikaal]

1: 1% reduction in your base GCD = 1% increase in DoT potency
2: The initial damage of spells are not affected, even thunderclouds

Also, haste abilities (ley lines, arrow, fey wind, etc) don't do anything for DoT tick potency.

Are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure I tested Aero and Shadowflare who are both 25 Potency DoT and Shadowflare seems to have a higher gain on Spell Speed for DoTs. To be exact, just the naked base DoT is stronger for Shadow Flare than Aero and this makes no absolute sense.

Not to mention that there are a few things that I have not seen tested.

1: SS Increases DOT "Potency" Direct Modifier to it.
2: The Next Thunder X will add it's full damage over time amount to it's initial damage - Is this value altered by the change to Thunder Dot Potency.

Example
T3 - with 1150 SS. Say this value changes the DoT Potency to 44.4 from 40/tick.

Would the T3 Proc be worth:
425.2 + 355.2 = 780 Potency

compared to at 354 SS:
390 + 320 = 710

Or

390 + 355.2 = 745.2
-------------------------------------------------------

All of which are fairly significant.

We really need more data for the gain on DoTs for spell speed lol.

But yes, and I will be adamant about it. A Thunder III Proc is a 710 Potency spell of a 2.5 Second cast. 745.5 With Enochian buff. Far more superior than any Fire III proc or that 529.2 Potency 3 Second cast Fire III. There's no way anyone should forsake Thunder and I don't think of any reason to used Sharpcast on Fire over Thunder or Thunder III. You can Sharpcast a proced Thunder III for an extra Thunder III. With 4 DoT clip, your Thunder III is 577.5 Potency. Still much higher than Fire 1 or even Fire IV. Even at 5 ticks clip Thunder III is better than Fire IV and this does not include the gain from Spell Speed on DoT damage.

If the DoT DPS gain is really 1% per 1% reduction then a full Thunder III proc would probably be around 800 Potency lol that's the damage of 2 Deathflare xD

Edit: The only reason I would drop Thunder is when I know the boss is about to go invulnerable (in about 10-15 seconds) or you need to burn an add in 10 seconds. Then yes, it is kinda silly to refresh a DoT

[StouterTaru]

Are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure I tested Aero and Shadowflare who are both 25 Potency DoT and Shadowflare seems to have a higher gain on Spell Speed for DoTs. To be exact, just the naked base DoT is stronger for Shadow Flare than Aero and this makes no absolute sense.

How big of a sample size did you have, and were you comparing average vs average or high vs high and low vs low?

A 2.2 base GCD is a 12% reduction from 2.5, which would give your DoT ticks 12% more damage. That makes a Thundercloud T3 give: 70 + 8*40 + 8*40*1.12 = 748.4 total potency.

[Judge_Xero]

1: 1% reduction in your base GCD = 1% increase in DoT potency
2: The initial damage of spells are not affected, even thunderclouds

Also, haste abilities (ley lines, arrow, fey wind, etc) don't do anything for DoT tick potency.

Where did you get those #'s from? I would really like to see the testing.

I'm still not certain that the whole DOT value isn't added to a Thundercloud proc including the modified potencies. It's hard to get good samples but from analyzing values on Logs:

If a F4 with just Enochian hits for ~6100 @ 529 Potency
T3 Proc hits for 4800 what is the Potency?

6100/529 = 11.5312

4800/11.5312 = ~416 Potency.

Without knowing the exact SS values of the test subjects. I would guess for this example somewhere around 1050, or +696 SS. From what I've seen 1% Cast Reduction = 0.9% Increased DOT Potency.
This would give a T3 Proc a value of
43.8 * 8 + 70 = 420 Potency.

Not saying for certain that it is effected because there is that darn +/- 5% variance on damage on top of examples where Enochian is active for a T3 Proc. But from looking at averages that seems to be the trend.

T3 Proc @ 390 Potency in that example should only cap out at - 4500 Damage but continues to average higher.

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That's right that Haste abilities do not effect Dot Damage. Only abilities that effect the SS value do. Enhanced Pet Procs etc. That's why so many skills were changed in Heavensward to control the balance of SS with classes that really excel using it.

[Aikaal]

How big of a sample size did you have, and were you comparing average vs average or high vs high and low vs low?

A 2.2 base GCD is a 12% reduction from 2.5, which would give your DoT ticks 12% more damage. That makes a Thundercloud T3 give: 70 + 8*40 + 8*40*1.12 = 748.4 total potency.

I don't have a big sample but you you go completely naked the DoT of shadowflare is 1 damage higher than Aero lol that's something I've noticed and that everyone that made the test notice and it makes absolute no sense test because the tooltip specify both of them are spells with potency of 25. at 500 Spell Speed it became two damage higher but my samples are not developed mainly because I don't have the time lol.

Also, Attack Speed devalues Spell Speed because you need 66 Spell Speed for 1% GCD Reduction and I definitely noticed and probably everybody can confirm me that your Spell Speed doesn't have as big of an impact when under Leylines because your base GCDs are 2.125 and 2.55 If what you're saying is true (which I hope you are not) Attack Speed would have a negative impact when casting DoTs but it is unlikely if Judge_Xero made the test

[StouterTaru]

snip

I tested Aero vs Shadow Flare on SCH, and it does appear there is about a 1% damage difference. That's 25.0 potency vs 25.3 potency, so it looks like they have different potency values but are both rounded to 25.

Ley Lines doesn't change Dot tick damage, it's calculated separately.

Thundercloud testing numbers:

	Freeze	DoT	TC III
low	3831	439	982
high	4230	486	1085
adj	4032.6	462.1	1033.7
adj	4028.6	462.9	1033.3
pot	100.00	44.70	390.12
pot	100.00	44.79	389.86

What numbers mean:

• Columns are for Freeze cast, DoT tick, and Thundercloud III cast
• high and low are high and low non-crit values
• adj are those values adjusted for the +/-5%, high/1.05, low/0.95. The closer these number are to each other, the more accurate the result
• pot is the potency of those adjusted numbers, based off Freeze potency of 100

Number analysis:

• GCD was 2.19, 12.4% reduction, DoT tick increase is about 11.9% increase in damage based off Freeze potency
• Thundercloud III potency is 390 based off Freeze, which is exactly what you would expect if the DoT damage increase from SS wasn't added in

[Aikaal]

Thundercloud testing numbers:

	Freeze	DoT	TC III
low	3831	439	982
high	4230	486	1085
adj	4032.6	462.1	1033.7
adj	4028.6	462.9	1033.3
pot	100.00	44.70	390.12
pot	100.00	44.79	389.86

Does look like you've swapped your numbers for Freeze and TC III lol

There's no gain from the Thundercloud proc from Spellspeed. SE should adjust their Thundercloud tooltip because it does say "it will add its full damage over time damage amount to its initial damage. Did it by comparing Fire IV and the potencies were similar. Then again, TC3 Proc would be pretty broken if it would get double the Spellspeed Potency bonuses from DoTs.

The Potency bonus is definitely not the same as the GCD reduction. It looks like for every 1% GCD reduction you get, your DoTs increases by about 0.95% That's good to know because most BLMs are at about 12% GCD reduction with their spell speed so if we round at around a 11.5% DoT potency gain, we have ( 390 + 40 * 1.115 * 8 ) * 1.05 I'm adding the Enochian modifier because if you don't have Enochian... you did something terribly wrong lol. Its about 746.8 Potency and with the Enochian modifier, it's 784.14

Number aren't exact but it's nice to know at around 1150 Spell Speed, you gain 4.6 Potency per tick lol

I need to work on my stuff but things went horribly wrong at my job and I basically became an overtime tool lol

[Judge_Xero]

Awesome ty Stouter for clarifying.

Really great information.