Pld Oath's on GCD

[Shurrikhan]

The only problem is that, if PLD Oaths/Grit were off GCD, it would be a heavy buff to the classes, as they would be able to flick them on/off on demand.

You can already flick Oaths on/off on demand more so than Warrior can "on demand" change stances; it's just every cost but immediate availability that need looking into. I would assume a limiting factor besides more mana would be used to reach the same sort of restrictions on Oaths even if made oGCD, be that through a CD, bringing in a new resource system for each that does not carry over so easily as stacks of Wrath or Abandon, using a psuedo-GCD like Meditation or Empyreal Arrow that reduces time spent while cooling (can swap instantly only once every so often, after which it becomes a full GCD and gradually cools down to a oGCD again), or even changing Sword Oath to a situational ability so that Paladin, too, has only one stance to swap into and out of.

[Sweetgrass]

You can already flick Oaths on/off on demand more so than Warrior can "on demand" change stances

You can't do it during your GCD, which is the main limiting factor. Not having to trade a GCD for your tank stance would let you use it similar to a cooldown, which would be pretty powerful.

How does Emp Arrow work? I hear a lot of BRDs say it's really smooth, not sure what it actually is.

[Marxam]

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him. This is without taking into account and defensive cool downs. This a point right here validates why warrior's tank stance is more flexible as this one simple act of pro and con necessitates why it needs to be ogcd.

[Marxam]

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him. This is without taking into account and defensive cool downs. This a point right here validates why warrior's tank stance is more flexible as this one simple act of pro and con necessitates why it needs to be ogcd.

Here's and old post that I feel best explains why warriors have their stances off gcd.

Producer and director Yoshi-P here.

I understand that all our warriors out there are eager to know what patch 2.1 has in store for them. While we’re still in the testing stages, I’d like to give you a preview of what we have planned. Please keep in mind that warrior is still being tested in all encounters available in 2.1, and the following information is subject to change.

Marauder Changes

• Brutal Swing

  - Recast time will be reduced from 30 to 20 seconds, increasing the frequency with which players can stun foes.

• Overpower

  - Enmity generated by this skill has been increased.

• Storm's Eye

  - TP cost will be reduced from 70 to 60.

• Storm's Path

  - TP cost will be reduced from 90 to 60.
  - This skill will also reduce damage dealt by enemies for a period of time.

• Holmgang

  - Range will be increased from 3 yalms to 6, to make the skill more effective.
  - This skill will now pull enemies toward your character. *As of 3.38 this is still not working as intended, specifically in pvp.
  - When using this skill, a player's HP cannot be reduced lower than 1.
  - The animation for this skill will be revised. (See screenshot above)

• Vengeance

  - This skill will also reduce damage taken by 30%.

• Mercy Stroke

  - Recast time will be reduced from 60 to 40 seconds, improving ease of use.

• Thrill of Battle

  - Effect duration will be extended from 10 to 20 seconds.

Warrior Changes

• Defiance

  - Enmity generated by this skill will be increased.
  - This skill will also increase HP recovery via curing magic by 20%.

• Wrath

  - The improved healing effect granted by Wrath will be removed. Instead, the improved healing effect will be granted by Defiance.

• Inner Beast

  - Due to overall balance changes, HP absorbed by damage dealt will be reduced from 300% to 100%
  - Damage taken will be reduced by 20% for 6 seconds.

• Steel Cyclone

  - This skill will generate increased enmity.

• Unchained

  - Recast time will be reduced from 180 to 120 seconds, improving ease of use.

The main focus of these changes—as the seasoned warriors among you have already observed— was Inner Beast and its HP absorption effect. With these changes, warriors will no longer be dependent on a single skill to recover HP, and have overall improved defense.

To put it simply, we want to ensure the role of warriors as durable tanks. This is why we've also adjusted the effects of Wrath and Defiance. As currently implemented, warriors are forced to lose their healing bonus when using certain skills. However, these changes will allow players to use their warrior skills without sacrificing improved healing, and also maintain the critical hit bonus of Wrath.

Although warrior will no longer recover immense amounts of HP in a single use of Inner Beast, these changes should improve the overall defensive capability of warriors and the ability to heal them using a support class or job.

Patch 2.1 may seem a long way off, but please understand that we have to test these balance changes not only in encounters to be introduced in the upcoming patch, but all existing encounters as well.
(Please refer to a previous post for details on why we cannot break up patch 2.1)
While I regret having to keep you waiting, I am confident these changes, along with the numerous additions we have planned for patch 2.1, will be well worth your patience.

[Sweetgrass]

This a point right here validates why warrior's tank stance is more flexible as this one simple act of pro and con necessitates why it needs to be ogcd.

Warrior is still much more powerful than the other two tank classes, even with your point in account.

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

[Lambdafish]

Warrior is still much more powerful than the other two tank classes, even with your point in account.

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

Agreed. Marxam, your anaylsis (while nice) is of a 1 for 1 on the two skills. Doing a 1 for 1 on holmgang and hallowed ground will tell you that PLD is OP, but that isn't the case. Making the oaths off GCD won't affect ShO in the slightest but will make it easier to switch into SwO a lot more, which will make it easier for the job to do more damage, which is the key thing that holds the job back currently.

Here's and old post that I feel best explains why warriors have their stances off gcd.

This post is also from 2.0 and explains why WAR was changed, and does not compare it to PLD. It was also made before 3.0 skills (of both PLD and WAR), and before DRK affected the tanking meta.

[SpookyGhost]

I think people don't seem to understand that Defiance doesn't give any damage reduction. If a 10k tank buster hit a warrior in defiance with 10k hp, he will die instantly while a PLD or DRK with 10k hp will only get hit for 8k in their respective tank stances and if a warrior switched from Deliverance to Defiance he would still be sitting at 8k hp which would still kill him.

These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

[Shurrikhan]

You can't do it during your GCD, which is the main limiting factor. Not having to trade a GCD for your tank stance would let you use it similar to a cooldown, which would be pretty powerful.

How does Emp Arrow work? I hear a lot of BRDs say it's really smooth, not sure what it actually is.

I just meant that as far as mitigation goes, you're free to turn it on and off every 2.5 seconds or less, whereas War will have to wait 10 seconds to swap back. It's damn near "on-demand" as is. It's just the offensive costs that hurt, especially for PLD.

Whereas Meditation just uses a half-GCD (roughly -- doesn't actually scale as such), Emphyreal Arrow uses the same cast and animation lock time as any other Wanderer's Minuet (e.g. casted) Bard skill but is technically off-GCD. So, depending on when you use it, it can function basically alike to either a GCD or oGCD. The best way to put it though, is probably just an oGCD with a double-length animation lock. So if you fit it behind an instant-cast, it acts like any other oGCD, except that being twice as long you can't double-weave it. Its cooldown also scales with your Skill Speed, which helps prevent desync or lost proportion of use.

For Oaths, Meditation would probably be the smoother example, e.g. mana cost reduction on Grit and each Paladin Oath costs only half a GCD.

[shao32]

PLD/DRK need serious buffs and/or changes until WAR stops being a guaranteed party slot, but it's unknown if that will ever happen.

or you know, nerf WAR, a tank how can survive without a healer and dealt max dps its pretty insane, sure SE dont touch the WAR now bcs they have a weak balance bethwen tanks and they are touching the parry now for 3.8 - 4.0, in any case whe need to have a global view of the other roles to think in what tanks needs, for mi view point PLD and DRK are pretty fine, they have they strong and weak point and they can dealt every conten witout a problem, WAR in other hand have the best dps and the best set of mitigation plus selfheals making the job the one man army thats is now, there is no balance in the WAR and thats the problem.

and for the OT spot don't matter if WAR was underpower compared to the other tanks, if they still have the best dps and those raid supports they still get secure the OT spot, to kick WAR for the OT spot whe need some changes in hem capabilities and a new tank how offer similar level of raid support.

[Lyth]

snip

I don't think that the post that you linked explains why WAR's stances are oGCD. It's referencing the fact that, prior to 2.1, Wrath stacks granted a bonus to healing rather than crit. Inner Beast represented a trade-off: either hold on to your stacks to keep up your bonus to self healing, or expend them for a 300% self-heal. 2.1 changed the self-healing bonus to be an intrinsic part of Defiance, and made Wrath give a bonus to crit. This in turn was later changed into a parry bonus with 3.0 due to the introduction of Deliverance.

You are correct to point out that WAR does not gain an instantaneous bonus in eHP on switching stance. The flip-side to this is that the cost of stance dancing is usually paid by your healer. Also, even in the event that you don't correctly plan your stance dancing in advance, you do have the largest and most powerful collection of instantaneous self-heals at your disposal out of any tank.

The biggest cost to stance-dancing on WAR used to be the fact that it cost you your stacks prior to 3.0, which could be considered analogous to the MP costs on PLD/DRK. This was removed with the introduction of Deliverance, because it allowed you to keep your stacks.

These numbers don't make sense. In this case, all 3 tanks would be @ 8k HP out of tank stance, and WAR would be at 10,000 in Defiance. WAR would get hit for 10k and get deleted, PLD/DRK would get hit for 8k (10k - 20%) and get deleted.

While you're right to point out that the numbers for Defiance look off, I think that the example was designed to illustrate that WAR doesn't get an instantaneous eHP benefit from stance dancing.

The tankbuster in the example hits for 10k after considering gear but before considering damage reduction buffs. If you swap into Grit/Shield Oath during the cast, the effect is instantaneous and you take 8k damage. If you swap into Defiance during the cast, you are still sitting at 10k HP, but your max HP is now 12.5 k. If you don't get topped off during this interval (either by yourself or the healer), you take 10k and die. This usually isn't an issue though.