Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[Jim_Berry]

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

It'll just make your life (and others) easier. Instead of the healer trying to heal through damage that the dps is receiving due to stealing agro unintentionally while you spam Unleash, Unmend, or get a Power Slash combo off, one Provoke and a sneeze with ease all of that.

[Shurrikhan]

That's an opinionated statement, because I'm sure there is a high percentage of people who enjoy leveling more than raiding or doing other content.

Then, would it not also be a failing if you were forced to raid in order to level an alt class?
I like incentives to level, too, just... that argument can as easily be flipped.

At present, raiding does require extra leveling, especially for tanks. Whereas it's a dps gain of some 5% for others, it's the ability to even function in the role in numerous fights for a tank. Would those who prefer leveling to raiding not be perturbed if raiding was required in order to progress their second tank over 22 instead?

The beauty is that we AREN'T forced to Raid. Raiding is it's own separate entity, and doubt that it ever will be a requirement to leveling.

I never said it would be; this is clearly hypothetical, an analog by which to view certain complaints. The point is that you ARE forced to level extra classes that may not interest you or provide anything seemingly new to your gameplay or understanding of your role, in order to raid, e.g. "How would you like the flip-side of <...>?"

[Jim_Berry]

Then, would it not also be a failing if you were forced to raid in order to level an alt class?
I like incentives to level, too, just... that argument can as easily be flipped.

At present, raiding does require extra leveling, especially for tanks. Whereas it's a dps gain of some 5% for others, it's the ability to even function in the role in numerous fights for a tank. Would those who prefer leveling to raiding not be perturbed if raiding was required in order to progress their second tank over 22 instead?

The beauty is that we AREN'T forced to Raid. Raiding is it's own separate entity, and doubt that it ever will be a requirement to leveling.

[Brannigan]

What, exactly, is the downside of just making Provoke a level 22 "General" skill that can be used by classes and tank jobs? Here's what I've come up with:

-some players might not experience the thrill of leveling gladiator to 22
-future tank jobs won't be needlessly tied to gladiator and its bland additional actions
-someone's macro might break
-everyone will notice how slim the cross class pickings are

[Lambdafish]

What, exactly, is the downside of just making Provoke a level 22 "General" skill that can be used by classes and tank jobs? Here's what I've come up with:

-some players might not experience the thrill of leveling gladiator to 22
-future tank jobs won't be needlessly tied to gladiator and its bland additional actions
-someone's macro might break
-everyone will notice how slim the cross class pickings are

To add to your list
- the entire game will turn into a hand holding simulator if we ever dared to make provoke easier to access
- we miss out on the fun of encountering tanks without provoke



Also a point that should be made. The situation is slightly different these days than it used to be because of how fixed the tank roles were in 2.0, PLD held the MT spot always, and in order to tank efficiently you really needed to know both, so getting provoke wasnt much of an issue. In 3.0 everything changed with DRK (note: a class that you don't even need PLD unlocked to get), now the 'best' setup is DRK/WAR and people can forget about PLD if they really wanted to. As more tank jobs are added, the more variety there is, and the less need to level tank jobs that you arent interested in is, and people will still be forced to level GLA to 22 to make any of the tank jobs viable, which they may either be unaware of (job doesn't even require PLD unlocked), or they don't want to do (lazy - but either way, still in the DF).

[Lan_Mantear]

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

True. But once you leave that comfort zone and do anything more difficult than 4 man dungeons or HM trials, btw people can solo most HM trials, you'll find yourself looking foolish trying to justify why you don't have an essential tanking skill, while everyone else just shakes their head and proceeds to carry you.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

DRG might be a great example, however. They can function well without the need of any cross-class skill. Their core rotation is easy to do, and their combos are seperate, stack together, add DOTS along the way, etc, and their cross class skills just give them access to a few handy buffs. Nothing vital at all.

It's not a difficult job to get good enough at that the average party could note that said DRG was missing Invigorate (rarely needed) or Bloodbath (already have a hp sucking skill) and causing major issues.

Unlike Provoke.


So again, under certain circumstances, a player may not understand how vital the skill is since up to that point nothing else was, even if they understood the system fine.

You know...

Mreh, I got them mixed up, I'm sorry. (don't know why I thought Invigorate was a PUG skill o.o'''....)



I've actually had a few DF conversations on useful cross class skills, as well.

It usually came down to, "Do you have such-n-such skill?"
"No."
"It'll make you're life way easier with it, and here's why!"
"Okay, cool. Thanks."

Ah yes.

Still it would be quite the feat to level up Dragoon to high levels and not get Invigorate...
That would be something worth investigating should it happen. XD

[LineageRazor]

It occurred to me this morning that the game already has a framework that help make tanks aware of the need for tank-swapping and Provoke, before they get into an endgame instance:

Guildhests

From the very beginning, Guildhests were designed to be tutorial battles, to help introduce players to various mechanics commonly found in the game. The last Guildhest is a level 40 8-man party, which for many is their first introduction to playing the game as a Full Party (aside from the odd FATE party, where no Full Party synergy is needed).

SE could add another level 40 8-man instance. There might be trash mobs or whatever to keep the DPS and healers in the party engaged, but the main enemy would be a Medusa-style Lamia who does not auto-attack and has only two special attacks: An attack that petrifies the current enmity leader, and a Shatter attack that kills anyone who is petrified (and does pitiful damage otherwise), alternating on a 20-second timer. The Guildhest instructions would clearly spell out the need to pull the Lamia's attention away from the petrified tank, and possibly even suggest Provoke specifically as a useful tool for doing so.

Because it's a Guildhest, it would still be easy to win. If the tanks are unable to swap properly, healers have plenty of time to raise the dead tank, and even if both tanks are dead the Lamia would have plenty of DPS to petrify and kill, giving the healers plenty of time to get the tanks up. Still, it would introduce tanks to the idea of trading hate, a very common mechanic in later battles, and give tanks a chance to learn that Provoke is expected.

[The_NPC]

as I started GLD I got Provoke anyway (PLD is my only used Tank class at lv60) outa the... I'm gona call them "mid-level" as Alex norm is at lest harder than DF dungeons at their ilv... few instances I've ran were Provoke would be "Needed" usually a tank without said skill then just dies to the mechanic you would have swaped for (Vuln-debuffs+Tank buster) thus the "tank-swap" happens regardless you just get stuck with the annoyance of raising dead tank & dealing with them being weak from raising (so about 10 sec's to hard raise/full heal & mana loss from healer)... okay well that & the possible shit storm that loss of the highest arrgo causes depending on situation

Do I think how WAR/DRK get Provoke needs to change: Nope, learning even the basic's of each tank class helps you better understand working with 1 as co-tank later, that said the game COULD imply as to why you need it even if its with the Training hall as a "new" 8-man training battle.

[Krazymagic]

Ive been out of this thread for a while, just glancing through the discussions since I last posted though Im just shaking my head. We have some truly ridiculous suggestions coming out of this thread. Everyone wants to fix a problem that really doesnt even exist. If there is a problem with tanks not getting provoke, its the individuals problem, not the games problem. Cross class abilities are a huge importance to many classes, not just tanks. It is a vital part of the game. Its even vital for crafters. Lot of people making a mountain out of a mole hill here, and then suggesting really stupid things to fix perceived mountain they have created. Personal responsability, individual incentive, this is what it takes for anyone to be a good player. If a tank wants to skip provoke, let them be a sub par tank - they do have the option to do that, and I have the option to remove them from my group if I feel they are poor and/or that their willful ignorance is hurting my gameplay. The devs need not spend any efforts fixing something that isnt a problem, everything is fine just how it is with regards to provoke.