Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[Freyyy]

This is not the case for DRK, because the job doesn't even require player to even unlock gladiator to begin with..

Yeah there's that too and it's nonsense to me. A guy who only played let's say DRG until level 50 and never touched any tanking class is able to pick DRK up without any requirement and start right at level 30 with no cross-class skill at all and the funniest part about that is that they're gonna be able to get all the way to 60 without ever touching GLD and MRD. If nobody tells them, how will they know about voke if they're new to the game ? You can't expect them to see that there is two glowing class icons on the cross-class menu and think to themselves "Oh, I might get some really nice abilities for DRK if I level these classes, let's take a look !", no, they won't do that, they wanna play DRK they gonna play DRK. Then they'll hit 60 and get to their first duty requiring Provoke, and the other tank will be like "bruh wtf r u doin y u no voke", and they'll learn it the hard way, which can lead into the player running away from tanking and pick his DRG back up.

[lvlagmarink]

Yeah there's that too and it's nonsense to me. A guy who only played let's say DRG until level 50 and never touched any tanking class is able to pick DRK up without any requirement and start right at level 30 with no cross-class skill at all.

Somehow this is a great example that hits a jackpot because most of the DRKs-without-voke i encountered were mostly levels DRG or BRD.. It prolly has something to do with players' personality..

[Nihility]

What confuses me the most is that it doesn't matter if it is the players fault or the games fault, why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback? Making provoke more visible to new players isn't hand-holding, it is intuitive design that doesn't dumb the game down in any way. Yes there is active help (not intuitive design), but for such a vital skill as provoke, the game should offer something a little more obvious so that problems CANNOT happen (you can't have both freedom of choice, and mandatory at the same time).

But omg terrible players right? They should stop playing tank and uninstall the game

I'm not opposed to the idea that all tanks should get some form of provoke, warrior and dark knight have some borderline useless skills that could be changed.
I'm also not opposed to small changes like having cross class show full lists but be greyed out
I'm just amazed at the lazyness of some people. There's actual posts here trying to explain how changing back and forth between jobs is some huge tedious task.
I guess the thing i'm opposed to is this growing mentality of "My hand isn't being held the entire way so my immediate response is to throw a tantrum like a baby"
Most of the things these people complain about they could have solved the problem themself in a fraction of the effort it takes to whine their way to success
I've never known anyone in game that wasn't a complete useless derp that ever had issues with any cross class stuff. Those people tend to not even use the tools they have anyways
Shouldn't the natural response to the game outright telling you "you can only cross class gladiator and pugilist" be looking at gladiator and pugilist to see what they have to offer?
Shouldn't the natural response to the game giving you a pop-up about cross-class skills be experimenting with it and seeing what it can do?

Not every game is meant for everyone. I've been party finder matched with a gladiator at 60 with every other job at 1 because "I only play sword and shield"
Leveling multiple jobs is a core component of this game, that guy will never accomplish much without being a huge drain to anyone he's teamed with

Somehow this is a great example that hits a jackpot because most of the DRKs-without-voke i encountered were mostly levels DRG or BRD.. It prolly has something to do with players' personality..

again though, All classes have cross class skills. DPS are not an exception to that.
If you level DRG to 60 without dealing with cross class skills at all and then unlock dark knight and level it without even taking a glance at what cross class skills are available to you.
How is that not a player that is just openly rejecting what is offered to him?

In that kind of case it would seem to me even having the cross class list populated with the possible skills wouldn't even help because that's a guy that didn't even care enough to look

You could have a pop up active help that literally listed every single cross-class you can get and what they do every time you unlock a job. It is not going to help the guy that immediately closes it without looking then invariably starts complaining that it's not explained properly

[Freyyy]

I'm not opposed to the idea that all tanks should get some form of provoke, warrior and dark knight have some borderline useless skills that could be changed.
I'm also not opposed to small changes like having cross class show full lists but be greyed out

Then why are you arguing that much ? We're literally just suggesting that. And it's not even for US, it's because we saw too many tanks without Provoke and in some duties it's a guaranteed wipe. Maybe they could also make cross-class Provoke just a requirement for entering these specific duties as WAR/DRK just like there is an ilvl requirement. Like, for example entering Ramuh EX would require ilvl 85 AND having Provoke in your hotbar if you're a WAR or a DRK.

[Ametrine]

DRG might be a great example, however. They can function well without the need of any cross-class skill. Their core rotation is easy to do, and their combos are seperate, stack together, add DOTS along the way, etc, and their cross class skills just give them access to a few handy buffs. Nothing vital at all.

It's not a difficult job to get good enough at that the average party could note that said DRG was missing Invigorate (rarely needed) or Bloodbath (already have a hp sucking skill) and causing major issues.

Unlike Provoke.


So again, under certain circumstances, a player may not understand how vital the skill is since up to that point nothing else was, even if they understood the system fine.

[Awful]

Snip.

I've seen those guys and it isn't pretty at all I had a lvl 57 Lancer in my Vault one day I que'd in progress as a DPS and got greeted with him only have 57 Lancer no other classes unlocked. What's funny is that the game tells you "Hey when you hit 30 you can turn into a new class" with brief text on the screen guess he didn't see that and is a solo player which sucks poor guy I felt bad for him.

For me when I first played the game in 2.0 I picked up Gladiator so I never had this issue however, my friend lvl'd warrior and had to lvl gladiator to 22 which wasn't a big deal at all. Fast forward to 3.0 and Drks are out my friend picks up HW gets Drk and is lvl 52 without voke and being made fun of because they didn't have Provoke which I did tell him you do need it it's essential, he got it but turned him off tanking so now he plays a healer.

[Nihility]

Then why are you arguing that much ? We're literally just suggesting that. And it's not even for US, it's because we saw too many tanks without Provoke and in some duties it's a guaranteed wipe. Maybe they could also make cross-class Provoke just a requirement for entering these specific duties as WAR/DRK just like there is an ilvl requirement.

adding more pointers to provoke isn't going to fix that.
bad, lazy players that just want to look cool with a big weapon and get carried through content without exerting any effort will not go away no many how much in game help you add.
If they're not using the in game help and not using the in game training facilities, what makes you think adding more of it will change that behavior?

What's your excuse when it's two paladins and they can't figure out how to tank swap? Because that happens just as often

[Freyyy]

adding more pointers to provoke isn't going to fix that.
bad, lazy players that just want to look cool with a big weapon and get carried through content without exerting any effort will not go away no many how much in game help you add.
If they're not using the in game help and not using the in game training facilities, what makes you think adding more of it will change that behavior?

What's your excuse when it's two paladins and they can't figure out how to tank swap? Because that happens just as often

For these players who are just unwilling to improve, the vote kick option is a pretty good deal, but in my experience I've seen far more often players who were just ignorant because the game outright fails to give them the right indications, either brand new to tanking or new to the game, but were taking the advices, than assholes like the ones you described. Just because there is some real baddies who won't care whatsoever doesn't mean that the game shouldn't get that tiny QoL change for the new players who will actually find a use to it.

When two Paladins are unable to tank swap in general it means that the one currently tanking sits in ShO and only does RoH combos. Give him advice, if he doesn't listen or doesn't want to apply ("dont tell me wut to do! i play teh way i want!"), vote kick. We can't do anything for them.

[Lambdafish]

It's not a difficult job to get good enough at that the average party could note that said DRG was missing Invigorate (rarely needed) or Bloodbath (already have a hp sucking skill) and causing major issues.

The two most important cross class skills for melee dps (blood for blood and invigorate) come from LNC, the most important ones for DRG are internal release? second wind? mercy stroke? I could forgive DRGs for not thinking that the system is essential.

For seasoned players I understand that the knowledge is expected, but you can level completely from 1-50 on DRG and 30-60 on DRK quite easily missing the information, you would have to be quite unsociable to, but some players are, and the system has to be designed to catch those unsociable players who will screw with the DF, for the rest of our sakes.

[lvlagmarink]

If you level DRG to 60 without dealing with cross class skills at all and then unlock dark knight and level it without even taking a glance at what cross class skills are available to you.
How is that not a player that is just openly rejecting what is offered to him?

You made an awful example of cross class skills importance, DRG does well enough without a single cross class skill usage during their rotations just as Ametrine had wrote, there are only 2 handfuls, but less crucial crossclass that a DRG should have, and those are Second Wind and Internal Release.. I'm not sure why Ametrine wrote it's a great example at the start tho..

It's not a difficult job to get good enough at that the average party could note that said DRG was missing Invigorate (rarely needed) or Bloodbath (already have a hp sucking skill) and causing major issues.

A DRG should have invigorate by default because it's lancer lv 22 skills.

adding more pointers to provoke isn't going to fix that.
bad, lazy players that just want to look cool with a big weapon and get carried through content without exerting any effort will not go away no many how much in game help you add.
If they're not using the in game help and not using the in game training facilities, what makes you think adding more of it will change that behavior?

What's your excuse when it's two paladins and they can't figure out how to tank swap? Because that happens just as often

So by your logics, all the tanks without provoke must've been plain lazy ignorants who want to be carried? Why is it that there are times that some of those tanks actually thanked me for the information being given even tho they felt sorry for themself.. Those memories of mine must've been a figment of my imagination, because by rights all those tanks are pure worthless players.. Is that right?