Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

[Cakekizyy]

It is unlocked at level 10 but players can only change to a class which reside in their default hometown hence the 3 cities voyage in MSQ

It is possible to travel between Uldah and Gridania before airship, just a little hazardous at low level without escort.

[Zojha]

I haven't said any of those things.

No, they are implied by your mocking of intuitive design, clarity and game flow as "entitlement". Is expecting the game to tell you exactly how to move or what your skills do somehow not "entitled"? Is making NPC names obvious from afar somehow not "entitled"?

Logically, you cannot oppose one but not the others because the underlying design principles are one and the same. So pick a side and stop applying arbitrary double standards.

[Nihility]

I fully agree with all of that, but the thing is that the majority of new players won't even remember what they read on that little window which pops at level 10 or won't even read at all. There is also the thing that once, as a new player, you look at cross-class skills, for the majority of them it's not really game-breaking, most of them are completely useless (savage blade, skull sunder, impulse drive, cure, raise, and so on), and only a few of them bring most of the time very basic DPS boosts (B4B, IR, Raging Strikes, Hawks Eye, Invigorate, Mercy Stroke), or defensive abilities to get more survivability (Second Wind, Keen Flurry, Foresight, Bloodbath, Convo, Awareness, Mercy Stroke). Provoke is the ONLY exception to this, being a MANDATORY tanking skill which has NO REASON not to be included into EVERY tanking classes' BASE toolkit. It's just like if DRK didn't have Grit and had to cross-class Shield Oath instead. It's the EXACT same thing. It's just plain ridiculous and new players shouldn't be expected to guess by themselves that such an important tool for their role is missing and needs to be obtained from another class to even be viable at end-game.

Tho, as I said before, they could just improve the way that the game introduces you to cross-class abilities. I think that just putting this shitty pop-up at level 10 isn't enough because when you're only level 10, firstly you still don't have access to changing classes (you can only do that once you reach a certain point in the story which is closer to level 14-15 than 10), and secondly most people don't even want to try other classes, they want to see more about their current class, they want to level up and progress the story. So they think "I'll do that later", but most of the time they'll forget about it or don't even think that cross-class abilities are THAT important until they run into someone who tells them. If they improved that, by atleast putting a message on the level 30 job quest saying something like "Warning, if you don't have Provoke from the Gladiator class you'll have a hard time with other people !", THEN, we, as veteran end-game players, would have all the rights to EXPECT these new players to have read this message and get the Provoke.

I think your main confusion is your mixing end-game skilled content with unskilled new players.
An experienced, skilled player should be able to figure out the necessity of certain cross class skills and be willing to put out the effort to obtain them. The only things that ever really need those skills are the end-game raids designed for skilled players after all.
If you look at it none of the 24 man stuff really has anything provoke is needed for, deep dungeon doesn't need it, none of the 4 man content needs it, nothing with hunts needs it, none of the normal mode trials need it, the story raids don't need it

Which is true for a lot of things; some fights awareness is a necessity, Invigorate is considered a necessity pretty often, swiftcast is considered a necessity, stonekin and all of the dps buffs are considered necessities.
But when your doing the content not designed for the highly skilled players. You don't encounter "I only land crits" Adds, or need to be tank swapped debuffs, or dps checks that require buffs and invigorate, or the need to pre-stoneskin, or incoming damage so high that it prohibits hard-casting a res.
Even the vast majority of used to be cutting edge stuff gets cleared because groups can brute force it with gear and the echo instead of mechanical skill

People at the level to need those skills should also be at the level to be able converse with others and be able to learn and grow.


There will always be the "lies about skill level in party finder, unwilling to learn, unwilling to be taught" people. But i can guarantee you they are the problem, not the game

[lvlagmarink]

There will always be the "lies about skill level in party finder, unwilling to learn, unwilling to be taught" people. But i can guarantee you they are the problem, not the game

In which, those tanks could also blame the game for providing little information about it and we lose more tanks in circulation including for those contents that doesn't even require provoke to be used.. Hence tanks always be the adventure in need..

[Freyyy]

I think your main confusion is your mixing end-game skilled content with unskilled new players.
An experienced, skilled player should be able to figure out the necessity of certain cross class skills and be willing to put out the effort to obtain them. The only things that ever really need those skills are the end-game raids designed for skilled players after all.
If you look at it none of the 24 man stuff really has anything provoke is needed for, deep dungeon doesn't need it, none of the 4 man content needs it, nothing with hunts needs it, none of the normal mode trials need it, the story raids don't need it

The thing is that when new players reach end-game, they are still new and while not especially "unskilled" (a new player can be very skilled but just lack experience and knowledge in that specific game, but since he's very skilled he will learn very quickly and reach the top-level of players in no time as long as he's given the tools to learn), still lack knowledge. If they want to get into the end-game, made for "skilled" players like you said, they have to get that knowledge, and that's where the problem lies. You either need another player to tell you that you need that specific level 22 GLD ability for those fights, or need to watch guides on the internet. It's not like other cross-class abilities like B4B or Invigorate which are tied to 0 battle mechanic whatsoever, these are just basic DPS increasing abilities, or utility abilities such as swiftcast. Provoke has entire encounter mechanics based around it, things forcing tank swaps and whatnot. Such a skill should be included in every basic tank toolkit, but since it is not, they should atleast improve their way to tell new players that they need it instead of just putting a pop-up at level 10 that doesn't even suggests that you can get such an important ability from another class. Looking at guides on the internet or ask other people shouldn't be a necessity in order to learn the game properly. Guides or other people's advices should only be here for optimizing your gameplay, learning specific fight mechanics and stuff, but not to learn such a basic thing as "get that level 22 GLD skill".

[Lambdafish]

What confuses me the most is that it doesn't matter if it is the players fault or the games fault, why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback? Making provoke more visible to new players isn't hand-holding, it is intuitive design that doesn't dumb the game down in any way. Yes there is active help (not intuitive design), but for such a vital skill as provoke, the game should offer something a little more obvious so that problems CANNOT happen (you can't have both freedom of choice, and mandatory at the same time).

But omg terrible players right? They should stop playing tank and uninstall the game

[Freyyy]

why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback?

That's a question I'm asking myself a lot when reading threads in this forum

[Shurrikhan]

What confuses me the most is that it doesn't matter if it is the players fault or the games fault, why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback?

That's a question I'm asking myself a lot when reading threads in this forum

Somehow design mantras like "'you're leaving the objective area' is a failure of game design" come to mind, but in fact it's probably more alike to the difference in resolution.
You can do a good job, or you can just do the job well enough. But in either case, it's not like later improvements aren't an option...

[Cakekizyy]

What confuses me the most is that it doesn't matter if it is the players fault or the games fault, why are people opposed to a QoL change that only benefits and has no drawback? Making provoke more visible to new players isn't hand-holding, it is intuitive design that doesn't dumb the game down in any way. Yes there is active help (not intuitive design), but for such a vital skill as provoke, the game should offer something a little more obvious so that problems CANNOT happen (you can't have both freedom of choice, and mandatory at the same time).

But omg terrible players right? They should stop playing tank and uninstall the game

I had to walk to school uphills both ways, so you should too.

[Lambdafish]

I had to walk to school uphills both ways, so you should too.

reminds me of people who say "FFXI didn't hold my hand, so intuitive design is bad" as though FFXI is a game that is the pinnacle of game design. What is the downside of the suggestions given? (provoke swapped with FoF, a message telling the player about provoke upon lvl 30, giving each tank their own provoke etc.)

"I had to go through a flawed system, so the system shouldn't be improved" is a terrible comeback :P

EDIT: It is possible you were being sarcastic, but the point still stands to others if you were