Do YOU think we'll get a new Tank and/or Healer in 4.0? And vice versa.

[ADVSS]

^^This its mind boggling wed see DRK(ff3), MCH(FFT) or even AST(time mage?FFV) before the only job in the original game to be left out

[Nyerieri]

^^This its mind boggling wed see DRK(ff3), MCH(FFT) or even AST(time mage?FFV) before the only job in the original game to be left out

We'll if you -really- want to go back to the original game, lets also add thief to the game even though it would duplicate ninja in a lot of aspects just to round out the holy trinity everyone so desires.

Still haven't heard a good excuse why we need red mage besides the holy trinity.

(let's pretend armory system doesn't exist since square wants to do away with it in case the rogue excuse comes out)

[Alacran]

Some people keep clamoring for the idea of RDM being a Tank, I truly feel that it would do the Class/ Job so very much an integral and beloved staple of the series a great disservice.

In post from before I used in it the example given by the Producers as to how Classes/ Jobs are chosen, developed, and implemented.

https://youtu.be/VpxsH2rBGuw Final Fantasy XIV PAX East 2015 Heavensward Presentation Stream
(job selection discussion begins at 22:20)

When one think on the the look of Red Mage what comes to mind?

1.

(this is FFXI concept art)



2.





(all Rune fencers of FFXI)

Point being there are other FF Jobs that more readily "fit" the magic Tank role, along side the already implemented jobs that heavily focus on mp resource management and aggression holding mechanics. No need to sacrifice a Job more suited to a DPS role simply to hope for the off chance that Samurai not be placed in the Role it was originally envisioned in by the development team...(in link referenced above 28:20)

Once more it is completely possible this only reflects thought process and ideas that may have changed through the course of the year, until another Solid piece of evidence is given however I will continue to expect:

Samurai = Tank - (as many concepts were more than likely shelved once Dark Knight was chosen as the Tank for Heavensward and assets were left for later implementation to relieve work load/ development time due to Job implementation taking up to a year to complete) (seen at 25:02 in link provided above)

Red Mage = DPS (melee) - To possibly fit the Ala Mhigan Blade Dancer class, also to better expand on a particular character from the 2.0 story line. (referenced in FFXIV 1.0 as an enemy class "Thrill of the fight" level 36 GLD class quest)

Geomancer/ Shaman = Healer - (referenced in FFXIV main story line quest "Big trouble in little Ala Mhigo" as an npc healer working along side you in the encounter)

[Toranja]

Whatever fits the lore in the coming expansion better.

I really don't care much about Duty Finder "imbalances". That's why I git gud at least one job per role.

[Duelle]

Red Mage is not a fencer, he's a caster. The way RDM tanked in FFXI was by adding Mystic Knight traits and skills to it, completely crushing the RDM personality.

Actually, RDM tanking entirely came from the fact that certain enfeebles generated a ton of enmity and a RDM spamming those spells could generate aggro faster than the jobs actually designed to tank.

The "RDM personality" you're trying to refer to is a job that was basically mediocre at everything. This works in a single-player RPG because you're not competing with anyone for spots in content and the only person affected by your choices is you. In an MMO that doesn't fly because the job has to be competitive in some way to be worth bringing to raids and boss fights. XI's RDM has had a LOT of trouble in anything that did not involve cure/refresh-botting, and that did a lot more to kill RDM than whether they got Enspells or Phalanx (both of which actually fit the idea of a guy that swings a sword and casts magic quite well).

Logically, I don't think there's room for a fourth healer

We still have HoT-based healing (granted, they'd have to deal with the fact that HoT overhealing generates enmity before this becomes a viable healing approach), reactive healing and abilities that double as heals or attacks depending on your target. There are a couple of approaches to healing left. I still wish they'd bring in Chemist and Green Mage into the healing roster.

En-spells would end up being much like flash. I have a hard time seeing where it would fit anywhere without it treading on too much of another job.

Considering no other job can enchant their weapons, enspells don't encroach on anyone. You can also tie enspells to certain abilities to get specific effects while also acting as damage boosts for a RDM. On top of this, you could have a max MP penalty to activating enspells.

Some have also mentioned giving red mage double cast, another great ability in theory, but they would say they can't add it due tor balance issues.

That sort of already exists with abilities like Duality (NIN).

I can't see how they give red mage much offensive magic given how most of the other mage jobs have each elemental covered.

One does not prevent the other. RDM borrows from WHm and BLM, so a RDM having their own version of Fire/Blizzard/Thunder (probably with different names) would make sense.

We can also discuss Phalanx, Refresh, any of the abilities from 11 if you want, but do you think they will give them any meaningful times they would last?

Durations should be short, cooldowns should be long, utility should be relatively good. As I've always argued, Phalanx could be a cooldown that decreases damage taken by a party member, thus giving RDM some utility they can provide depending on the situation. Refresh is very likely to behave like Goad, which I don't really have a problem with due to Goad's longish cooldown.

I wish someone would sit down and write out how they think red mage would work without it treading on another job so much that we have two of the same jobs.

Obsessing over uniqueness for its own sake is a losing proposition, as you severely limit your options. That said, here.

[Zumi]

I think we will get 2 jobs but they will each have 2 soul stones kind of like ach does for smn/sch
Red Mage - 2 soul stones. RDM-Healer and RDM-DPS. Fits with the class being able to heal and do damage.
Samurai - 2 soul stones. SAM-DPS, and SAM-Tank

[Nyerieri]

One does not prevent the other. RDM borrows from WHm and BLM, so a RDM having their own version of Fire/Blizzard/Thunder (probably with different names) would make sense.
Obsessing over uniqueness for its own sake is a losing proposition, as you severely limit your options. That said, here.

If we can't have uniqueness, why add any new jobs at all? Keep refining existing jobs. 11 reached that point and 14 will reach that point at some point. (There are still PLENTY of unique jobs they could make for this game)

Also last I checked Fire/Blizzard/Thunder were all domain of Black Mage. What are they going to draw from white mage? another rehashed version of cure that will still be inferior to white mage due to red mages inherent nature of being the best at nothing? Stone magic is intertwined a bit into the white mage storyline. Square likes their little bubble they made right now, and I doubt they will let another job have the same magic skills as another. Also dual utility as a dps and healer would hurt their bubble of "we have to have a tank, a healer, and DPS, no exceptions".

-----As a point of reference, and I believe it is fair and just to reference it even though some people groan about it, the reason red mage worked well in 11 is because white mage and black mage had wide access to a LOT of different spells compared to 14. You give them too many spells that white mage and black mage already have and you have a job you can already play, right this minute! If WHM or BLM had more spells, I would say by all means go for it and create the holy trinity (almost complete, missing thief). I also disagree with the fact 11 made red mage into some "sit in the back and heal/haste/refresh" job since they had a lot of utility later on with soloing. When refresh and got added as a subjob ability (due to level cap rising), you saw a lot more people trying to venture out and have red mage play a different role. I remember plenty of those dual wielding sword red mages, or that red mage/ninja combo! ----

I still think Puppetmaster would fit better into the storyline if they intend to go for Ala Mhigo then any job presented so far. Just my two cents . Will report back in 12 hours about how many times I've seen clemency today!

I think we will get 2 jobs but they will each have 2 sole stones kind of like ach does for smn/sch
Red Mage - 2 soul stones. RDM-Healer and RDM-DPS. Fits with the class being able to heal and do damage.
Samurai - 2 soul stones. SAM-DPS, and SAM-Tank

This (I'm sorry I have to be the one to break it to you) has got to be the worst idea posted on this thread. Square has said they hate the arcanist (how it breaks off into SCH and SMN) and it would never happen again. I believe there was a lot of moaning and groaning from the community about this as well. I hope you truly do not believe they would make two jobs that follow in the same light.

[Zumi]

This (I'm sorry I have to be the one to break it to you) has got to be the worst idea posted on this thread. Square has said they hate the arcanist (how it breaks off into SCH and SMN) and it would never happen again. I believe there was a lot of moaning and groaning from the community about this as well. I hope you truly do not believe they would make two jobs that follow in the same light.

Yes because RDM is a job that can use both black and white magic in previous FF games. In order to do that in FFXIV it needs to be able to do 2 different roles since we have the trinity of job roles.

[AutumnsHollow]

I'd prefer to see red mage as a DPS than tank. It could be the melee form of a bard. Or a melee mage. That sounds more interesting to me than a tank red mage spamming fire 2. I do that enough for aoe pulls on black mage.

Yes, red mage can use white and black magic but I feel like some of you guys are focusing on that aspect too much. White magic can be used to inflict damage and buff people, it isn't just healing. Black magic is also seen to support people (apocastatis), and destroy them. The developers will change whatever is necessary to make jobs work. They could end up using a new form of magic in eorzea called red magic and just throw away the half assed white/black magic out the window.

Like the half assed white/black magic wouldn't even work here. Why would you want your skills to be weak compared to a white/black mage? Noone would take you over their respective jobs since you suck at everything and excel at nothing. Red mage will have it's role among the other jobs and will have to compete with other jobs for that role. If it doesn't have a clear identity it'll become astro 4.0. Like our community is just finally accepting diurnal astro with midas, but in gordias days both sects were shunned and serious raiders didn't accept them into statics because they were a half assed white mage/scholar. Nocturnal is still shunned in the raiding community, and we're finally entering the final alexender tier. Do you really want a repeat of that with red mage? I sure don't.

That's why I think a DPS red mage would be the best way to incorporate it. Either buffing the party with enchantments like a bard. Or stabbing things with their rapier and blowing them up as a melee mage, which we don't have at the moment.

On another note, as a healer main it pains me to say this but I sincerely doubt we'll get another healer for 4.0. They're having such headaches with astro, I think they're just going to rehaul the whole class in 4.0 and fix it because although it can compete with white mage in raiding atm, nocturnal sect still cannot. To pull the things off that a scholar can easily do they need to put in a lot more effort compared to scholar. The class is a mess. I also think they have no clue what to do with healers considering they think the white mage/scholar combo is so good that they tried to make a healer which incorporated both jobs into one....and well we know how that turned out.

[Nyerieri]

Yes because RDM is a job that can use both black and white magic in previous FF games. In order to do that in FFXIV it needs to be able to do 2 different roles since we have the trinity of job roles.

-facepalm-
I think you missed a whole debate and whining how scholar and summoner shared traits from square themselves and the community. Or you are trolling. Whichever the case, I can say with 99% confidence this will never come to light and the idea must be purged before the cycle repeats itself.