Do YOU think we'll get a new Tank and/or Healer in 4.0? And vice versa.

[Zojha]

it doesn't have to, we're only stuck in that mindset because all the existing ones do it. maybe trying to make it not have to is what will make the job different from all the other tanks.

Honestly, to be DF compatible every tank needs to have the tools to deal with the situations imposed by the dungeons/raids in the DF. There are tank busters so anti-tank buster moves are a given. I'm inclined to say a tank stance is given as well, as are several "aggro-spells" - whether they're a combo or not at least is up in the air. One of them however will be AoE and spammable. Likely some form of hard CC as well. And an "oh-snap" ultimate on a long CD. Oh, and it'll either have it's own provoke or cross class off GLD.

Basic tank toolkit - I doubt they'll make a tank that runs into situations where a properly geared one cannot do the content because he simply lacks the abilities to deal with it.

[SendohJin]

Honestly, to be DF compatible every tank needs to have the tools to deal with the situations imposed by the dungeons/raids in the DF.

Nothing I said implies they wouldn't have those tools. Those tools just don't have to be melee TP based combos.

[Zojha]

Nothing I said implies they wouldn't have those tools. Those tools just don't have to be melee TP based combos.

Agreed. I just feel the person you quoted earlier was in the right when he said a significant part of the skillset would (necessarily) be eaten by repeat abilities. I'd also agree that melee will be the focus of any tank, seeing as all mobs run to the target with aggro - and it would be a huge inconvenience for every melee to run after a kiting tank >_>

[SendohJin]

Agreed. I just feel the person you quoted earlier was in the right when he said a significant part of the skillset would (necessarily) be eaten by repeat abilities. I'd also agree that melee will be the focus of any tank, seeing as all mobs run to the target with aggro - and it would be a huge inconvenience for every melee to run after a kiting tank >_>

There's a huge difference between a casting tank and a kiting tank. PLDs cast Flash and Clemency and they don't kite.

There's no functional difference between a RDM casting Fire II to hold aggro vs a PLD casting Flash or a WAR using Overpower.

[Shurrikhan]

There's a huge difference between a casting tank and a kiting tank. PLDs cast Flash and Clemency and they don't kite.

There's no functional difference between a RDM casting Fire II to hold aggro vs a PLD casting Flash or a WAR using Overpower.

Except that, as it stand so far, there are no traits to prevent interruption, only Surecast, and you cannot dodge, block, or parry during a cast. These things can easily be fixed, but their not being pointed out or having suggestions made to counter that makes the idea of, say, a parry/evasion-based caster tank rather contradictory.

I'm all for the concept of a mage tank, and see no reasons why it should be lacking in any tank capacity, though I would like it to at least feel different in more than just that I'm rotating periodic and filler casts rather than through TP combos. I would just also much rather see RDM as a versatile hybrid DPS. But, I feel like it's issues like those that give the concept a bad wrap, especially if anyone, like now, were to join in mid-conversation.

[Nyerieri]

There's a huge difference between a casting tank and a kiting tank. PLDs cast Flash and Clemency and they don't kite.
There's no functional difference between a RDM casting Fire II to hold aggro vs a PLD casting Flash or a WAR using Overpower.

We would have a job that just facerolls over BLM like no yesterday. Also, last time I checked Flash and Fire II are not alike. Flash is instant vs casting time for fire II. Fire II also doesn't generate much enmity at all if the tank is actually doing his or her job. Can we have an actual creative discussion about RDM on the new thread created since there is still heated discussion? Still have no idea why people want to finish the holy trinity. I would rather have a more creative job then a rehash of a pld/drk/whm/sch/ast.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...eral-dicussion

PS - How often do Paladins actually use Clemency? Last time I checked I had no problem healing as a white mage where they would need to use it. Brb going to actually count the times a paladin uses clemency in one day. Will report back my results tomorrow!

[SendohJin]

We would have a job that just facerolls over BLM like no yesterday.

You are one of the most narrow minded posters I've ever seen on any forum. How does a job that doesn't have Astral Fire II/III, can't use Flare or Enochian Fire IV going to Faceroll over BLM?

Also, last time I checked Flash and Fire II are not alike. Flash is instant vs casting time for fire II.

Yes, the point is to make jobs feel/play different that don't overlap each other but still function similarly. They are not supposed to be 100% alike. Overpower is also conal, you complain things are too similar and will faceroll over existing jobs and at the same time complain they are not similar enough.

Fire II also doesn't generate much enmity at all if the tank is actually doing his or her job.

That's why a RDM Tank would have Phalanx that increase defense and increases enmity (just like Shield Oath, Defiance, Grit), Aquaveil that decreases spell interruption/allows for parry while casting, Fast Cast traits that reduce but doesn't eliminate casting time. Blaze Spikes that increase Enmity for all fire based spells.

Still have no idea why people want to finish the holy trinity. I would rather have a more creative job then a rehash of a pld/drk/whm/sch/ast.

Because RDM is iconic to FF and molding Sword, White Magic, Black Magic into a usable job without trashing balance can also be creative.

PS - How often do Paladins actually use Clemency? Last time I checked I had no problem healing as a white mage where they would need to use it. Brb going to actually count the times a paladin uses clemency in one day. Will report back my results tomorrow!

Why does that matter? PLD is not casting focused, RDM would be. And WAR has Inner Beast, Storm's Path, Thrill of Battle, Equilibrium, Blood Bath all of which give them HP back in one way or another. RDM would be a lot less tanky than PLD so it would want to have more self curative spells, abilities and traits.

The point isn't to make RDM exactly like PLD or WAR, it's supposed to be different enough from the other tanks so that people want to play it but still similar enough so that you can swap them out in DF and not notice a difference. and you would be able to raid with a DRK + RDM tank combo as well as you can with a PLD + WAR combo.

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White and Black magic: I've noticed a lot of folks assuming that Red Mage, in gaining both black and white magic, will actually gain spells like Fire II, Cure, etc. This does not have to be the case!

No, it certainly doesn't have to be the case. But one uniqueness of RDM can be because it's the only job that does. I'm not assumng they will have those spells I want it to.

Folks simply have to let go of the notion that Red Mage will be a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, as it has (occasionally) been prior.

But why should they when it's very viable to make it work. People do want a tank that can challenge the utility of WAR in OT situations and RDM on paper has every capability to do that. The Black Magic to do good DPS in a tank role but not so great as to rival BLM which is the actual DPS job. The White Magic to sustain itself in similar fashion that WARs currently can but not so overpowering that you can main heal like WHM. The only issue then is utility and mitigation. It's certainly viable between Phalanx, Stoneskin, Parrying and some other White Magic it can be competent at mitigation, but nobody is going to say it's a Master of Mitigation, PLD and DRK will still edge it out. It just has to be tanky enough to not die to tank busters and it will be usuable in the current game design.

[Nyerieri]

Some text was posted here.

I am not narrow minded, thank you. I believe majority that want red mage are. They offer no solutions besides "i want to see it be this". I point out facts of how it will not fit very nicely into this game due to most of what red mage did in the past is currently already being done. You have yet to produce a working template of how the job would work fitting into the duty finder mold. The hybrid of a white mage/black mage that a lot have said is going to end up being some weird astrologian again. People just do not want to hear the truth. They want their beloved job even if it will be the same as another. This thread HERE was the best brainstorm of how red mage could work in this game. If they implemented it this way, I would have no issues whatsoever. Most people here fail to understand the definition of a "want" and a "need" for this game -

Want - have a desire to possess or do (something); wish for; a desire for something.

Need - require (something) because it is essential or very important.; circumstances in which something is necessary, or that require some course of action; necessity.



The whole point of me bringing up clemency was the fact you brought it up saying paladin was a job that used clemency. You never pointed out that the spell is rarely used. PS - I saw no Paladins use clemency today.

You missed the whole point of this conversation - WHAT void are we filling by creating red mage? There is nothing red mage would SOLVE in the game. It's just an outlandish cry by the play base to finish the "holy trinity". The other poster brought up how we also need red mage because it's the only job not in the game from FF1. Why aren't we discussing why isn't Thief in this game yet? I am a realist, and am stating the obvious it isn't going to solve some problem that we have in FFXIV today. I rather them spend the time they would use making red mage into making better content.

Duty finder again, is going nowhere. Make a template like morningstar did and we can discuss it.