The Feast

[Zojha]

I mean, maybe. People don't always do the worst thing you expect of them.

People will maximize their rewards and if intentionally losing and win-trading via PF is the best way to do that, people will do that. It's just how it works when you try to bribe people into content they don't wanna do in the first place, they will attempt to get the rewards with as little effort and time spent doing that content as possible. And once they have the rewards, they'll be off, again, because they were never interested in that content in the first place. Moreover, the reward needs to be within the tolerance threshold of players - nobody cares about Savage despite its rewards simply because it's too much effort.
This is how controlling behaviour with rewards works and why I'm getting increasingly frustrated when people have no better ideas than "slap some rewards on it" for any sort of dead content. If we apply the same logic to 1.0, all SE would have had to do is to pay players for playing, rather than remaking the game to be something people are willing to pay for themselves.
Did you know 8vs8 "and" 4vs4 of the feast had very swift queues when they first came out? I remember waiting no more than 5 minutes. People didn't stick, 8vs8 is dead. Why? Refer to the above. It's not fun and people got their pup/marks.

Worse, you're destroying intrinsic motivation in the process, which is the thing you actually want to foster. Go to google scholar and search for some intrinsic motivation vs extrinsic rewards studies for reference, a few should be freely available.

I totally agree with you that increasing popularity is the top priority. I just think this needs to go the way of gameplay changes, rather than rewards. We don't need more people to "do" PvP, we need more people to "enjoy" PvP - participation will come on its own as a consequence.

[Koltik]

One big problem I've seen is players who are new, but think they know everything and absolutely refuse to listen to experienced pvpers advice.

You have the 10 stack tank who thinks the healer is horrible if they can't heal them through it. Because they've "stayed alive before" - probably against terrible DPS.

You have the DPS who refuse to work together and follow marks, despite how much you ask them to.

You have the Bards and Machinists who don't use PvP mana song for their healer - actually had a bard say "...suck my dick" when I asked for it on my Astro.

You have the DPS who continue to LoS their healer, or not purify full swing, or blow all CD's before players even engage, and refuse to do it any other way.

This is bad for PvP - anyone on Primal will know I get hot headed when people make mistakes, but all my rage is usually guided towards pointing out what went wrong and how to fix it. I make mistakes myself, we all do, and PvP is about constant improvement of those mistakes. The problem comes when the other players just don't care to fix it and play like the basketball player who never passes the ball. It's a team game, not solo.

Point of this is that the best thing new players can bring to PvP is the willingness to learn and adapt to changes. Listen to people who have experience. Unfortunately lately it's been a 50/50 split between those who are and those who aren't. It's hard for us who are feast-heavy to even want to try to help new players when half of them don't give a shit anyway.

[Tsumes]

Feast 1000% needs a beginner unranked queue. I can whole heartedly say. The "experienced" people who queue 4v4 are toxic as hell. My FIRST time in, I was told to never queue again. After that it was pretty much the same negativity. I am by no means an expert healer. But I'm better then average at the very least. Every single person who've tried to "give advice" always do so in a rude and demeaning manor. So me being the a-hole that I am. I refuse to take advice from those types of people. Be nice, it's not hard. Besides, this is a game. If you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

[Rufalus]

This is how controlling behaviour with rewards works and why I'm getting increasingly frustrated when people have no better ideas than "slap some rewards on it" for any sort of dead content.

I don't think people will do anything if they can't work towards a realistically attainable reward which is relevant to them. For example if dungeons only gave 5 tomestones per run and there were no roulette bonuses, they wouldn't be run with regularity just for enjoyment. Any kind of content is kept alive by long-term reward incentives, otherwise I guess more people would unsubscribe. If Nidhogg didn't give IL 235 weapons and mounts then it wouldn't last long. I think this genre is built on reward bribery. If people just want to do pvp for pure enjoyment, there are a lot of dedicated pvp games on the market to choose from which will have more pvp content than FF XIV.

[Japtor]

I've been doing PvE only and recently decided to focus my attention more into the PvP aspect of the game, to say I've done it, enjoyed it etc. (also not much new content right now).
As someone who is not completely trash in PvP (playing frontlines usually), I am still learning with each match I play. I am ranked Bronze with 29 matches played in the Feast with a 44% win rate. I started in the middle of the 2nd season to have something I can look forward to in this game, have dabbled in fl roulette a bit when Seal Rock was a thing. So I'm in the average/okay bracket I guess.

The biggest problem I am facing right now is the unbelievably unfair matchmaking in the Feast. I am put into teams with players that have been PvPing since s1 and earlier or players straight out of PvE with accuracy all over their lore gear. Basically how I started since I didn't know any better. (continued)

[Japtor]

Of course I keep meeting players that express their upset feelings (and it can get pretty colourful sometimes), sometimes they are trying to give me helpful advice when I ask what I could improve on, I end up in the higher spots of damage dealt (MNK), but it just needs one guy to kill your mood and motivation for the gamemode.

You play with someone in a small team of 4 people, every player is important for the outcome. And then you have one or two in your team who don't know what the hell they are doing or are not aware of how to handle specific matchups (if you are a newcomer to the feast, how are you supposed to know all of this from the start, it's impossible).
You obviously get frustrated because you see the mistakes they do, they don't, seems so obvious.
Because you are not new. The community is almost entirely only out of veteran PvPers that have been doing this for quite some time. Which is not a bad thing, most of them are trying to improve and revitalize the community.

[Japtor]

But the way matchmaking works right now... it will effectively scare away people who develop an interest in PvP because SE thinks it's a good idea to scramble all sorts of differently skilled players, mash them into a match for the sake of fast queues (which aren't fast at all even), mess up everyones ratings that don't deserve to be matched with lesser/higher skilled players and get carried to victories or drag their team mates down to losses.

I personally got my share of all this nonsense, I enjoy PvP a lot, just not the Feast anymore. It creates a negative atmosphere and promotes toxicity. I've had more fun at Shatter to be honest. I will come back to it as soon as SE realizes that bad players need to play with bad players, good players need to play with good players. Because I can't improve if I get stomped on by Golds constantly or let someone else carry me.

Sorry for the wall of text, thought maybe a PoV of someone kinda new would be helpful to the discussion.

[Zojha]

I don't think people will do anything if they can't work towards a realistically attainable reward which is relevant to them.

Agreed - and fun is such a reward. Just as the feeling of accomplishment is. Intrinsic motivation, what I keep saying.

What kept DotA alive, back when it was a WC3 custom map? Or, custom maps in general. How did League of Legends manage, back when the only 'reward' was a new champion after a long IP grind? And how did ARAM become popular to the point they made it a proper mode? How did WoW bring forth a PvP-alt scene (that later was stomped good)? Why do people go great lengths to complete an outfit or decorate their houses? Heck, why do charity workers exist? Not for rewards, I can tell you that.

Dungeons need their rewards because they are the same over and over, which is why they have a very low replay value. The first time is fun and doesn't really need rewards, but the later runs increasingly do, because the natural enjoyment is going down the drain as you keep repeating - what I said earlier, repetition drains enjoyment and thus the intrinsic motivation. That goes for single-player games akin - if the game allows for more freedom and/or choices, it will typically be played more often, as the replay value is higher. PvP innately has a very high replay value, as no game is ever the same. This is how people manage to play League of Legends or Counter Strike for thousands of games, in the prior case even on the same map. So naturally, rewards should be "less" needed than in PvE, not more.

Another little issue with your theory is: PvP is not dead on JP datacenters, even though they get the exact same rewards. How does that work? I surmise they simply enjoy it more - I have a hard time finding another explanation. Could we, perhaps, emulate the effect? I'm sure we could. But not with rewards.

[Nakanishi]

Feast 1000% needs a beginner unranked queue. I can whole heartedly say. The "experienced" people who queue 4v4 are toxic as hell. My FIRST time in, I was told to never queue again. After that it was pretty much the same negativity. I am by no means an expert healer. But I'm better then average at the very least. Every single person who've tried to "give advice" always do so in a rude and demeaning manor. So me being the a-hole that I am. I refuse to take advice from those types of people. Be nice, it's not hard. Besides, this is a game. If you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

I suppose not casting and/or putting a sect on places someone above the "average healer".

The problem with a lot of these new healers is that they don't see that they are at fault. They never win, then place the blame on their team. You would think after so many consecutive losses they would realize they have no room to s*** talk and understand they're the problem. tfw the new players are more toxic than the "experienced" players.

This is SE fault for placing pups with wolves. A problem that hinders both pups and wolves alike, the wolves more though.

[Divinemights]

This is SE fault for placing pups with wolves. A problem that hinders both pups and wolves alike, the wolves more though.

Yeah, it is SE's fault. Why SE didn't create an English PvP community that is big enough to sustain real competitive Feast mode: Fixed Party Feast. Now all the hungry wolves have to played in solo que mode with pups.

No, I don't really agree with you. FF14 PvP community will not grow with such toxic attitudes toward new players. Solo que maybe ranked, but it is a mode specifically decided for the players who can not find a fixed party for real competative mode. I do not agree that this solo que mode is specifically design for top players. It is really not.

Most of players that complains about new healers are usually those at bottom of barrel. They are struggling and unleash their anger and frustration on new players. If you really want a competitive environment, organize weekly event for fixed party Feast where you are 100% guaranteed with teammates that are pros It is because you found them yourselves.