Is TP interesting as a mechanic?

[Duelle]

I feel like [1] would have significantly more change to gameplay than people are looking for.

This is understandable. I've always been a fan of resources being a way to differentiate classes from one another, and ideally I would like PLD, DRK, WAR and DRG to have their own unique takes on STR TP instead of being held to a universal system.

[2] If costs and regeneration rates are both increased, there's no real change made, I would think? I'm not sure what this is trying to accomplish.

The intent with my suggestion is to have DEX TP work similar to how Energy works in WoW. As you know, it's a resource that is spent quickly but regenerates quickly to reward the player learning how to pace themselves. Admittedly this is the intent behind the current iteration of TP, but it hasn't worked out due to several factors.

[3] To be honest, the only model I've really be fond of as an alternate to the current Greased Lightning system would be based on the Legion Shadow-priest, especially when it was still capable of stacking the Haste buffs from accrued Insanity of Voidform burst phases atop each other when played well (and with a bit of luck) even in entry-level gear. That said, that could as easily apply to a Chakra system (releasing the gates) instead.

What I was aiming for was for MNK building up momentum and then focus on keeping that momentum. It wouldn't be that different from what they currently have, except that instead of Greased Lightning dropping all three stacks once the timer hits 0, you just lose stacks over time.

Non-sequitur:

Chakra

Chakra as a whole is flawed and something I'd love to see scrapped and redesigned. The main flaws are that a) fifth chakra is the only one that matters and b) you have to spam a button to attain fifth chakra. I equate it to character dialogue that breaks the flow of gameplay in a platformer/action game. The system breaks the flow of gameplay for MNK.

Real-life Chakras all mean different things and have different properties. The 7th/final Chakra is not the only the only one that matters like in-game, and I think a MNK should have skills determined by what Chakra they've activated.

[Shurrikhan]

[a] This is understandable. I've always been a fan of resources being a way to differentiate classes from one another, and ideally I would like PLD, DRK, WAR and DRG to have their own unique takes on STR TP instead of being held to a universal system.
[b] The intent with my suggestion is to have DEX TP work similar to how Energy works in WoW. As you know, it's a resource that is spent quickly but regenerates quickly to reward the player learning how to pace themselves. Admittedly this is the intent behind the current iteration of TP, but it hasn't worked out due to several factors.
[c] What I was aiming for was for MNK building up momentum and then focus on keeping that momentum. It wouldn't be that different from what they currently have, except that instead of Greased Lightning dropping all three stacks once the timer hits 0, you just lose stacks over time.

Non-sequitur:

Chakra as a whole is flawed and something I'd love to see scrapped and redesigned. The main flaws are that a) fifth chakra is the only one that matters and b) you have to spam a button to attain fifth chakra. I equate it to character dialogue that breaks the flow of gameplay in a platformer/action game. The system breaks the flow of gameplay for MNK.

Real-life Chakras all mean different things and have different properties. The 7th/final Chakra is not the only the only one that matters like in-game, and I think a MNK should have skills determined by what Chakra they've activated.

[a] I get that too. I just want that resource system to work atop what we have now, rather than being a limiter for it, if that makes sense. If TP is going to prevent you from being able to use the rotations you know and maybe even enjoy, that seems unnecessarily problematic to me, especially if it's not almost entirely sure to produce a preferable result.

[b] Makes sense. I just wonder at that point how it'd be any different than the original stamina bar, except that the stamina bar at least toyed (for all of one beta build) with the idea of regeneration speeds decreasing with progress/fill, and damage dealt via TP-spending moves increasing with fill, so you had a haste vs. damage mechanic. If it were like stacking a skill speed resource to be used when you want, and otherwise rotations go on as normal, then it feels like augmentation rather than a limiter.

(I'm faintly reminded of the fatigue system, where you could potentially reach half or more level max level classes (if not for the obvious leve issues those days after skill-farming was removed) faster than when the system was replaced with bonus exp. Bonus exp felt faster, but unless you were disinterested in leveling more than a couple classes, that wasn't necessarily true; it just depends on the actual exp rates more than the system. Nonetheless, it was that feeling that condemned the first and praised the latter, more so even than people specifically wanting to focus on a single class.)

My only other potential issue here, and this is a stretch, is that an energy bar is basically a redundancy (with the simple GCD) unless it creates additional gameplay components as a result. Things like holding onto a GCD, and its variable energy costs, while waiting for a DoT to reach the brink of falling off (or the pandemic / roll-over) are things that require a energy system that ensures that the holding time won't go to waste. But at the same time, without a sense of compromise between the two system, it adds no more complexity than the GCD system alone does, especially once you attach issues like combos (wherein to take advantage of the filler space before refreshing a DoT, you might have to be even later in refreshing it) or preferred abilities and syncs (such that the DoT is worth waiting a half GCD, or to clip an oGCD into the GCD prior, to perfect). As long as energy always binds you, you will always wait that X duration remainder for the debuff's perfect refresh. There's no decision.

[c] (Non-sequitor) [RANT] Yeah, it's hard for me to really even envision where they were going with the Chakra system. Meditation's failure to scale with the GCD, even after having its recast reduced, means it would only be viable in combat if Tornado Kick and Forgotten Chakra were each buffed, at which point it would be usable after Tornado Kick used at the tail of your CD-window after refreshing all DoTs and unloading all oGCDs so that the amount time spent prepping damage in terms of a fifth each of a Forbidden Chakra would be a smaller portion of the GCD (1.4s of 2.38s or so, instead of 2.15 or less). And even then, it'd probably be more of a TP-efficiency alternative than the optimal choice... Purification being attached to that system would seem to make sense, except that it has a long cooldown, meaning that you can't use it for extended AoE any more than one would a Form Shift spam between Twin Snakes (or DK-TS-RB only if focusing a single target with all AAs). I get that they didn't want us to have unlimited TP by Purifying between every pull while our Bards are forced to Swiftsong instead of restore their own TP and Machinists only get mild contribution from tossing out and promoting their Rooks every 5s or 2 bonus ticks as we run, but it makes the ability feel more like a capacity change than any sort of job ability. During downtime, once per Invigorate period, you get 67% more Invigorate...

When I first heard about the Chakra system coming into play, I imagined it either be gradual gates of release or a series of gameplay-affecting mechanical additions, each adding a higher priority mechanic that effectively or entirely replaces the last. Instead its a stack charge system used only for an opening oGCD and then more Invigorate or another opening oGCD during each encounter break thereafter.

But hey, I still dislike that Form Shift doesn't even have any uptime single target uses. It has AoE TP efficiency implications as long as you absolutely would bottom out and clear the AoE pack more slowly without it (rarely the case). It has downtime uses, for returning to Coeurl or Coeurl minus whatever GCDs' worth of duration of GL remains and you'd rather open with something else. But never uptime single target.

[Duelle]

[a] I get that too. I just want that resource system to work atop what we have now, rather than being a limiter for it, if that makes sense. If TP is going to prevent you from being able to use the rotations you know and maybe even enjoy, that seems unnecessarily problematic to me, especially if it's not almost entirely sure to produce a preferable result.

I personally don't think it's possible to do anything to TP without major changes to either gameplay or ability structure. The system is literally entrenched between how TP currently works along with the combo system. If you increase ability costs you thus make BRDs and MCHs that much more desired. If you decrease ability costs you further trivialize TP as a resource. You can't really "empower" moves via TP because you then have to design two sets of abilities and balance them.

Moving to my STR TP suggestion, the idea behind locking abilities behind TP does several things. For one it gives the "baseline" rotations additional weight in the combat model. Secondly it would justify making certain TP-consuming abilities stronger and possibly allow for more variety in abilities (specially in the case of tanks; WAR in particular could get defensive abilities that consume TP). Thirdly it leads to a sort of stagger in strict rotations (DRG comes to mind), which means memorizing a rotation written on a piece of paper is no longer the way best way to play. Lastly, it gets rid of certain superfluous systems while keeping certain concepts intact.

PLD: An idea here would be causing Sheltron to cost TP while entirely removing its cooldown. If you want to ease the burden this places on damage dealing abilities, you could make the block from Sheltron partially refund the TP spent. You could also justify giving PLD more than just Circle of Scorn for AoE with TP cost as a limiting factor.

WAR: Entirely remove Wrath/Abandon and make abilities like Inner Beast cost a good chunk of TP. Additional abilities along this theme that benefit WAR defensively. You could tie a Wrath-like theme to the job by causing these abilities to enrage/infuriate the WAR, benefiting the WAR (placeholder idea for this is that certain abilities' true potential doesn't unlock unless the WAR is enraged/infuriated) and encouraging the WAR to remain enraged/infuriated as part of its gameplay.

DRK: Tying Souleater to TP is a no-brainer, and would justify making it stronger than it currently is. You could also add reactive abilities that consume TP. Not to mention that you could remove Reprisal's cooldown and have it cost a lot of TP.

DRG: Invigorate could be turned into a cooldown that reduces TP cost of non-"main" combo attacks. Blood of the Dragon could be turned into a DPS cooldown that would consume your full TP bar but increases damage dealt and removes TP cost from all skills for a set duration while still giving you access to Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw.

These are just stuff off the top of my head. I'd probably have to do a full design write-up to flesh it out and balance it.

[Shurrikhan]

I personally don't think it's possible to do anything to TP without major changes to either gameplay or ability structure. The system is literally entrenched between how TP currently works along with the combo system. If you increase ability costs you thus make BRDs and MCHs that much more desired. If you decrease ability costs you further trivialize TP as a resource. You can't really "empower" moves via TP because you then have to design two sets of abilities and balance them.

In the end it comes down to how soon you want a BRD or MCH, or anyone else supplying X resource, to be able to affect the party (with the support that resource gives). Foe Requiem and Hypercharge can work instantly. Ballad, Paeon, and Promoted turrets only have an effect if you would otherwise exhaust their respective resources. At which point the question becomes, do we want utilities and mechanics that have importance only after a given length of uptime?

As long as TP is a generated resource, it has no effect on immediate burst. It would be the damage-dynamic equivalent of Wildfire or, at quickest, Sidewinder. There's setup (resource build), and then you get to utilize additional mechanics that average into your theoretical maximum dps. That wouldn't necessarily create two designs for each ability, nor would it necessarily require individual balancing. It may require overall balancing, both because you've removed an exhaustion mechanic and added to average dps, but that component itself needs only to supply a level of damage that doesn't overemphasize TP bonuses from NIN, BRD, AST, and MCH.

The spenders for such could be anything like 'Multistrike' on command, duplicating a previous attack on the oGCD for % effect at TP cost (cost scaling with effect deployed), or baked into class mechanics themselves (Life Surge, Power Surge, Internal Release, Straighter Shot, and so forth). All that really matters is the final overall balance, and that gameplay is somehow improved as a result in the minds of most players. Beyond that it's just a matter of how much additional control or potential burst you want (as in the Multistrike example), and whether you want to introduce a shared limiter between certain toolkit skills (as in the latter example), where if either, or their combination, isn't gameplay compelling, the resource is pointless.

To be honest, the only role for which I could see TP as becoming truly troublesome to balance is the tanks, especially if there are ever both offensive and defensive TP spenders. Granted, that's something I'd kind of really like to see, but I can easily imagine why others would not, and how that additional control atop our already prominent dual tank/dps stance options might seem a bit much.

Moving to my STR TP suggestion, the idea behind locking abilities behind TP does several things. For one it gives the "baseline" rotations additional weight in the combat model. Secondly it would justify making certain TP-consuming abilities stronger and possibly allow for more variety in abilities (specially in the case of tanks; WAR in particular could get defensive abilities that consume TP). Thirdly it leads to a sort of stagger in strict rotations (DRG comes to mind), which means memorizing a rotation written on a piece of paper is no longer the way best way to play. Lastly, it gets rid of certain superfluous systems while keeping certain concepts intact.

These are just stuff off the top of my head. I'd probably have to do a full design write-up to flesh it out and balance it.

I might need the full write-up, sorry. Even with the Examples, apart from Shelltron and Warror examples, I'm having trouble visualizing what you're really going for.

[Ultimatecalibur]

The main reason I see players seeing TP as "boring" is due to the fact that all TP based classes only have 1 or 2 TP consuming rotations: a low TP consumption single target rotation (all non casters/healers have one) and possibly a high TP consumption AoE rotation (PLD and DRK uses MP instead for their AoE rotations). TP management is currently only important when a single target fight lasts so long that the low TP single target rotation or the amount of AoE attacks performed to kill all targets has consumed most of the character's TP.

The addition of high TP cost high single target damage actions/combos would likely cause players to find TP management a bit more interesting.