DPS requirements to unlock duties?

[Rongway]

This doesn't solve anything... How? How, does it solve anything? You still haven't answered me that. "They can kill a dummy or not "... right, ok but that doesn't mean they will get that DPS IN the fight.

I beat on dummy, win... "YAY, I can do a fight"
[...]
this dummy thing doesn't prove anything either. All it does is prove that you were able to beat on something for a few seconds, no matter how you got there, to get good DPS.

Here's the fundamental flaw in your understanding of the pro-dummy arguments.

The point isn't whether or not someone can put out the same amount of damage in the live fight that he can against the dummy.

The point is that he definitely cannot put out that amount of damage in the live fight if he cannot against the dummy.

Discounting damage subsumed by other jobs in a live fight via support abilities (Battle Litany, Trick Attack, etc) that are already accounted for by those individual jobs' unique dummies, your numerical output will go down in a live fight. So if someone can't dish out his expected contribution against a no mechanics, no movement, no danger dummy, he can't contribute enough to the live fight yet.

The chess bit is really reaching. A better chess analogy would be if you had to earn the right to challenge a 2500-rated Grandmaster by first completing an untimed Mate In X puzzle taken from one of his lower rated games. Finding the mate doesn't necessarily mean you'll beat the Grandmaster for realsies, but if you can't find the mate under no constraints then you should have no reasonable expectation of winning a live match with a clock and a chess god sitting across the table from you.

One of your main reasons was about wasting peoples time.... but then you ask people to waste time on a dummy, I'm sorry man, that is just straight up hypocritical, you can't wait 180 seconds to explain a fight or help people through it... but you want people, including yourself, with your system to waste 180 seconds, beating on a dummy, for no reason other than to unlock a DF button, to see if they can waste more time, with people that don't want their time wasted, and end up with the same result? (Redundant Much?)

The circuitous bit at the end doesn't make sense. You're describing

1. Waste three minutes killing dummy.
2. Enter live fight in DF.
3. Waste more time.
4. Have people get pissed at you for wasting time.

but really, 2-4 are already what happen now, because people think it's a waste of time to do 1. Better would be

1. Player Xiv can't kill dummy.
2. Eight other people who can kill the dummy move on to the live fight and can focus on mechanics rather than trying to determine who's missing universals/basics.
3. Nobody's time is wasted because Player Xiv now knows he needs to gear up or practice basics, and the eight people in the live fight get meaningful practice or a win.

or

1. Player Xiv can kill dummy.
2. Player Xiv is one of the eight people who move on to the live fight and can focus on mechanics rather than wasting time trying to hide an undeveloped understanding of universals/basics.
3. Nobody's time is wasted because the entire session is meaningful practice or a win.

If you're not ready for a fight, that's okay. Gear up, practice, and get ready for it. Entering the live fight needs to be about learning and meeting the specific demands of that particular fight, so that failed damage checks are about adjusting to new mechanics rather than trying to improve damage that was already too low even without the mechanics; one of those two problems is fixable in the live fight, and it's not the latter.

You might call a practice dummy a waste of time or a boring exercise in catering to the elitists, but it wouldn't just increase the value of everyone's play time in the live fight -- it would also make low damage contributions a personal matter rather than a matter that affects seven other people, and if it's a personal matter, there's less finger pointing and more self evaluation.

[Leigaon]

...Before you can queue for a bit of hard content IE Nidhogg, or Alexander you must first beat the SSS dummy of the equivalent duty. Only after destroying the proper dummy with the duty actually unlock for you.

There was a discussion about parsers, i'm sure is still on the first page and I thought about this same thing. The reason you want this in is good, in fact when I suggested it in another discussion I thought so too but people are already not thrilled over gated content, this just adds another layer. Now to someone like you, or that person who comes in and can play even when they have absolutely nothing to do but stare at the game with hate..yet play..or myself, coming in going to a striking dummy to unlock an EX trial isn't that time consuming. Don't get me wrong, I had the same idea and everything! This is just what I told myself and what it came to.

The reason to use it, from what you're saying, has good intentions. There is little incentive to learn your job half the time. I had a mage in Cutters Cry, heal and it was so difficult for him. Looked at his gear, he had level 10 rings..and no shoes! We were dying and we said along the lines of "it looks like you're real low on gear, that's why you're not keeping us alive" and explained how the fairy worked. I instantly thought it was going to turn into a firestorm of hate! Instead..he accepted it and said he will get better gear. So we worked with him, did a full clear..got chests and he got about three pieces of good gear along the way. His reasoning "I've never had to worry about gear until now.."

Now you're looking at it from just a DPS standpoint. I'm looking at it through an all play-style view. He was right, this game for the early levels doesn't push you like it could to be better. If you love your job, you're naturally going to have a set rotation and it might not be optimal but it will be up there. I don't look at rotations for my summoner, I think last time I did was..Binding Coil...turn..6? Yet, DPS isn't bad. Now I am guilty of being lazy, that tells me I'm spending too much time on the game and it's time to get off. So by no means do I feel as if I'm some natural miracle player that does great 100% of the time.

The dummy check would make people learn their jobs, but to what extent? People want to feel as if they've progressed by themselves to a point. To block things at this level of the game means people have to make this feel more like a chore/job/study session. And they will. Those who won't mind it will go in clear the DPS check and keep on trucking. Yet, this isn't in there to help people like yourself or some of the others here who posted and give off the "I'm awesome!" vibe. It's for the guy who this might be his first MMO and it just hasn't clicked.

I think your intentions are good, I just think that adjusting content on the way up to have people naturally progress would do more in the long run. We already have it set up, they are just too forgiving. For example, the Guildhest that has the iron giant, that spawns the skellies so you learn to kill adds. Well the thing dies so quickly..why bother? I rush through to get my tomes, new players go "wow that was easy!" and doesn't learn a thing. Have each add place Regen and a Defense buff on the boss so they learn "when adds come, kill or you're going to have a bad time" ..bring back the Demon wall bees! Remove the walls and let the landslides come! If you don't have to dodge for over 50 levels of content, you will not learn to. Put in the right stuff..well..gonna learn today!

[Imoen]

If you're not ready for a fight, that's okay.

Ah if only everyone thought like that. The chess bit was just an example you can insert any darned competitive game you want there. The point remains, it doesn't mean you're ready. Nor does it mean they will somehow magically remain at the level presented to them during that moment. (are we repeating this weekly? Monthly? every time you try to enter?) If non of those.... then there is no value to be had from such a system. If any of those, then it gets annoying ... fast.

No, I get the point in it, while I appreciate the time you spent on your detailed run down. I already get it... however.

It still doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

-It is still point blank an extra barrier for little to no reason.
-It offers little to no gain at the risk of alienating people.
-You will still have "bad groups".
-You will still fail DPS checks.
-it doesn't teach anything. It is a raw Bool check... (True/False.)

[shao32]

so the idea is block the content behind more DPS checks? are you serious?, i know many want other players bcm better but putting barriers in the game make it worse, more bcs is not problem of the game itself, is a playerbase one, if you want a way to improve the playerbase is more easy change the mentor sistem where you (the mentor) and x players whit the same job get in to a special SSS duty by mentor roulette, (the mentor need to beat this duty before) for lvl 50 or 60, the duty ends when the players beat the dummy in X time like now, the job of the mentor is teach hem how to make the DPS they need to do it, and for tanks make the dummy dealt some tank busters apart of the dps of course, and for healers make 3-7 dummys lose hp ramdomly and make the healers have it all alive to the end time, meaby add some enemies dummys too if you want to dealt dps with the healer.

[Launched]

It still doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

-It is still point blank an extra barrier for little to no reason.
-It offers little to no gain at the risk of alienating people.
-You will still have "bad groups".
-You will still fail DPS checks.
-it doesn't teach anything. It is a raw Bool check... (True/False.)

It's for a pretty big reason: improving the average skill of players you get matched with
It's a big gain by making runs faster and causing less wipes.
Bad groups will be less common.
Failing dps checks won't happen as often.
It teaches you more than that. Failing/clearing a dummy with different times lets you know how good/bad your rotation is. Running the dummy multiple times and comparing results lets you know how consistent you are.

[Imoen]

snip

No, these are all things you guys are "hoping" it would do.

Which isn't a problem at all, you all can keep on hoping. I don't think anyone would be against that situation. (The things you mentioned above.)

This game is designed to pursue multiple jobs on the same character. For this system to be of any value what so ever, you would need to repeat this, over and over, both for job switching, and time in game.

If it is a one and done thing, it has no value. That is just the truth of it.

[Critical-Limit]

No, these are all things you guys are "hoping" it would do.

Which isn't a problem at all, you all can keep on hoping. I don't think anyone would be against that situation. (The things you mentioned above.)

This game is designed to pursue multiple jobs on the same character. For this system to be of any value what so ever, you would need to repeat this, over and over, both for job switching, and time in game.

If it is a one and done thing, it has no value. That is just the truth of it.

If you force someone to learn 1 character, in a fighting game really well. The more easy it is to pick up another character. Extremely similar to this game

For instance once you teach yourself weaving OGCDs on one job you automatically understand it on other jobs.

Once again it raises the skill floor for content.

I won't see boot shine spammers or ice mages if there is a dummy gate.

[Silkerin]

Something the old static leader I had said when trying out new people is what the thread wants to address, but some people are just missing the point: "I can teach you the fight, but I wont teach you your job".

Basically, op just is looking for something to filter out people who cant perform the basic requirements with a system that is already in the game, so it wouldn't be needed to make something entirely new for that.

Personally, if the SSS requirement was once per each role every so often was the solution picked, i wouldn't mind, but like people insists on pointing out, is that it just blocks people and don't directly help them improve, which would be a "new" problem, the issue with people not knowing how to play their jobs properly has nothing to do if they are or aren't barred by the SSS. If they arent barred by the SSS they will get barred by other players directly, which already happens anyway, and in my opinion is worse then having to spend 3 min on a dummy trying to figure out your rotation...

Now if the issue with the sss is that it doesnt teach players, then what should be done is having a rework of the Mentor system, if you cant beat the SSS you can just try again later, or ask for a Mentor that would have done a new kind of trial especially made to test out mentors in specific jobs, allowing them to give help and interact 1 on 1 with someone that is having issues with their class. *which is what i hoped the mentor system would be initially... not that mess of a chat channel*

Not having a parser, or playing on ps is in theory not an excuse to not know how much dps you are doing, since there are online dps calculators that measure your dps based of the results you pulled from SSS.

I actually like OmegaStrongtan idea, as soon as you finish the lv 60 job quest, have something hard that teaches you more less what you should be doing, kinda like the novice hall.

While I can understand that for some people having to do SSS and failing seems like would demotivate the person to play the game, these same people must also acknowledge that people not having idea what they are doing at lv 60 is a frequent thing, causing a lot of vote abandons all around. Another thing is also understanding that while for some "giving a reward" for passing a possible mandatory SSS would defeat the point of it, you have to accept that compromises must be made, if you block too many people from doing the stuff, eventually you might run out of people to do stuff with.

So in the end, what we need is not only something to filter, but a way to also nudge people towards playing properly, Ideally SSS and Mentor would be the solution, but as they are right now, none of them work towards this by themselves.

[Alaltus]

I'm sure people won't like me for saying this. Just disable duty finder for end game; it has no place there. Randoms will always be a mixed bag and Duty Finder kills player motivation to socialise, build groups and organise things.

[Imoen]

snip

Ok, not quite sure why you are explaining that to me. People are still people, and it is still for that "one time".

You assume that the skill floor stays up. (if it even went up at all) I'm saying, that it won't necessarily stay up, and you will still run into problems. It's not a magic bullet that is going to stop you from seeing dem ice mages, there are all sorts of factors that can make a players skill level or knowledge drop off, I'm not going to go into that.

You guys are like looking at it like some magic door that's only going to let good players through. When more likely everyone that wants to get through, will by any means (Which doesn't necessarily mean they went out and learned their job) and anyone that doesn't will just be like "I'm out of here".

Then you bask in the glory of ... wait... was that an ice mage just now? o.O "how the hell he get here?"

Randoms will always be a mixed bag

Yup.