Additional penalties for mentors insta-leaving dungeons?

[Watachy]

Right, expel the child because he didn't come to school knowing full-well how to read and write from the get-go. Good philosophy.

Your examples are terrible, you're comparing things litterally differents imo.

Playing with other people is the baseline of an MMO, if you don't care of others players then you shouldn't just try to play an MMO, that's just not the type of game for you.

[Nayout]

It's actually not a bad example, perhaps not perfect, but in school you will have kids who are unwilling to learn and will give you attitude. Dealing with that situation appropriately is a big part of whether or not you are a good or bad teacher, and as Harkuro said, some just give up. The appropriate response to a very ignorant player is to vote kick/vote abandon, not to leave.

At school the teacher has better tools to teach a student. Teachers undergo training and study years to teach children. In real life you do not have the option to pass the class with no idea (Duty Roulette) if or if you have to learn (Mentor Roulette)

That's a cynical point of view. There are also people who come from playing single-player casual...

People entering their first MMO are people who are willing to learn more.

[HakuroDK]

words

Before the mentor system, and even while the mentor system is still in place, there are still so many toxic players who may or may not be mentors who will berate bad players for being bad, going so far as to telling them how utterly bad they are and to uninstall the game.

I've seen that shit firsthand when partied with a tank who was undergeared of all things. In my view, mentors are supposed to be the counterbalance for that kind of behavior. But like I keep saying. If you can't handle one or two bad eggs, be a normal player. It's that apathy for players who may be a bit abrasive that really grinds my gears. So what if they don't want to learn? They're in content with 3-7 other people who are paying for subs same as that person. When I encounter those people, I educate and educate until they either get it or until they leave. That's my job as a mentor. And if those players don't like people trying to teach them how to play all the time, there's the door. And it's the same for mentors. There will be some good eggs and there will be some bad eggs. And you have to deal with all of them if you want to be a mentor.

[LadyVal]

Your examples are terrible, you're comparing things litterally differents imo.

Playing with other people is the baseline of an MMO, if you don't care of others players then you shouldn't just try to play an MMO, that's just not the type of game for you.

I think there may be a language barrier here because Hakuro said that you may get players who are used to single player games, and don't realize that other players can actually help them. He then went on to say you need to teach those kinds of players that listening and learning from others is valuable. Essentially, that sometimes you have to teach people who are used to single players games that this is a team/social game. Not so much that they don't care about other players, just that they aren't used to the MMO environment.

At least that's what I got from his post.

[Watachy]

I think there may be a language barrier here because Hakuro said that you may get players who are used to single player games, and don't realize that other players can actually help them. He then went on to say you need to teach those kinds of players that listening and learning from others is valuable. Essentially, that sometimes you have to teach people who are used to single players games that this is a team/social game. Not so much that they don't care about other players, just that they aren't used to the MMO environment.

At least that's what I got from his post.

My bad for that misunderstanding, understood it like "there is single players, used to single players game that don't wanna play with others"
Got his point now, sorry i was wrong apparently.
Yes, newcomers to the MMO games needs to understand that you have to work as a team, completely agree with that.

[Watachy]

I've seen that shit firsthand when partied with a tank who was undergeared of all things. In my view, mentors are supposed to be the counterbalance for that kind of behavior. But like I keep saying. If you can't handle one or two bad eggs, be a normal player. It's that apathy for players who may be a bit abrasive that really grinds my gears. So what if they don't want to learn? They're in content with 3-7 other people who are paying for subs same as that person. When I encounter those people, I educate and educate until they either get it or until they leave. That's my job as a mentor. And if those players don't like people trying to teach them how to play all the time, there's the door. And it's the same for mentors. There will be some good eggs and there will be some bad eggs. And you have to deal with all of them if you want to be a mentor.

I'm completely agree with you but we apparently don't have the same percentage of bad and good eggs cause in my case there is way more bad eggs.
That's probably something due to Moogle i guess...
Yet im trying to teach'em but how can i teach something to people that don't wanna learn ? So yeah basically in this case i might leave the party i don't wanna get an extra-penalty.

[Celef]

I'm completely agree with you but we apparently don't have the same percentage of bad and good eggs cause in my case there is way more bad eggs.
That's probably something due to Moogle i guess...
Yet im trying to teach'em but how can i teach something to people that don't wanna learn ? So yeah basically in this case i might leave the party i don't wanna get an extra-penalty.

The thing is, for one good mentor leaving because harassment or refuse to cooperate, we have plenty of others doing it on purpose because they don't like that dungeon, they cant' stand a wipe, they can't spend more than 20min in a mentor roulette etc.
I know it's unfair, but we need to get rid of those bad apple, i'm really sory f some good mentors have more penalty because of them, but i clearly don't see another way to deal with the bad mentors :/

EDIT : i don't want to blame all Moogle community at all but a know some kind of players on that server that can create that feeling of bad eggs you experiment Watachy

[LineageRazor]

It's not obeying, just listening, i would just like to see people TRYING to learn cause the majority i see don't even care or respond when u're on a mentor's roulette.
Mentorship is something long and rude we're agree on that i guess but it's a not reason to be too permissive, i mean, im mentoring people to help'em not getting harassed and yelled at because am trying tech'em.

Ah, but WHY are they "not listening"? Do they speak your language? Are your instructions too confusing for them? Are they mentally challenged? All of these are possibilities - and regardless of whether they're capable of comprehending what you're trying to tell them, it's our job to be there for them. Even if they understand perfectly, and think that you're not worth listening to, that's STILL not justification to abandon - there's still other people there, after all, and even the baddie will be forced to acknowledge that you may have a point when they continue to die over and over.

Even a failed run is valuable to the people learning the fight. You get better through practice. The individual who won't or can't listen will eventually be forced to acknowledge that, yeah, they aren't going to win this if they don't start dodging the gigantic explosion, or whatever. The trouble is, that a lot of mentors see a fight that times out as a failure or a wasted effort. It's not! The players involved (including the Mentor) now have an hour more experience practicing the fight. It's only a "waste" if the Mentor is depending on a win for some reason - like credit toward a mount.

As for folks tossing around random statistics like, "80% of mentors just don't care," or "the huge majority of players can't be taught" - that is utter hogwash. It's perception bias; people latch on to a bad experience and use it as a reason to unjustly vilify the majority. Whenever you feel frustrated, and start thinking along those lines - check yourself. Does it REALLY come up that often, or are those just the cases you remember most clearly?

And for the guy who keeps saying, "Just tell them to do it unsynced," that's hogwash, too. While it's possible that some of the newbies may not know that an unsynced option is available, others may be there because they don't WANT to take the easy way out. And whether they are after the challenge or not, the practice they get in the synced version will be much more useful to them than a faceroll run unsynced. The old Ex Primals have so many valuable things they can teach. For whatever reason you wound up in a synced Trial, take advantage of it to teach what you can. You may not win, but the participants will be enriched by the experience.

[HakuroDK]

I'm completely agree with you but we apparently don't have the same percentage of bad and good eggs cause in my case there is way more bad eggs.
That's probably something due to Moogle i guess...
Yet im trying to teach'em but how can i teach something to people that don't wanna learn ? So yeah basically in this case i might leave the party i don't wanna get an extra-penalty.

If I were in your shoes, I'd kill them with kindness and education. Teach them as politely as possible so that, when they lash out, they look like the asshole. Then after a while, if they're still being rude, vote-kick instead of leave. You won't teach that player anything if you leave. But there's something about a vote-kick that can really give someone a wake-up call.

[RLofOBFL]

I remember when I healed Amdapoor HM.....

The tank was undergeared, both dps were mentors & overgeared.

The tank struggled to keep aggro & the mentors brutally berated him & I just sat quite bc I don't like conflict. Right before the first boss they told him all kinds of cruel things & finally he left....then both mentors proceeded to leave. So I was sitting there before the boss alone in absolute awe that people could be so horrible let alone MENTORS. And that is how I lost faith in them forever.


They do need some kind of additional punishment imo, however I also think EX trials shouldn't be in Mentor roulette bc I can understand there are some things you just can't teach in 60 minutes. & you could just unsync them and be done with it.

On the other hand they are MENTORS that are only there to help, not clear, but 60 long minutes of wipe after wipe can be draining when the sprouts refuse to learn & continue to stand in Weight of the Lands, get knocked off, kill the Spiny/Satan feathers, fail to kill the inferno nails, etc, then they aren't accepting your help & it's like talking to a wall. 60 minutes of time wasted on nothing.