Players Who Don't pull their weight.

[Laerune]

Wait have I been playing my MCH wrong this whole time and using my damaging skills in groups? I play it to be the mana battery support.

"When you've healed all there is to heal, there may be time to weave in some offensive magics." - Hall of the Novice

So there went that theory, even the most basic healer training promotes it.

If we saw the class trainer saying these things or for example during a class quest:

* The player needs to heal his npc comrades, then the comrades HP is full, this is when one of the NPC (class trainer) shouts: "WoL character X has full health, we should attack now while character X has full health." Then the class trainer tells the player that: " while healing is the main job of the healer, doing damage will also help prevent monsters from doing damage to your group, because the faster monsters die, the less damage your group gets, the less you need to heal". Repeat those type of scenario in few class quests and every player should get a good idea of what is expected of the healer. They could even make it so that a player is not able to do a certain class quest, untill they unlock Cleric Stance.

Unless you do Novice Hall (which something most vetern wont do) you will only hear the whole: healers need to do dps aswell, only from other players. It does not help that pre-60 dungeon mobs die fast, which only encourages healers to only heal. I always try to dps when I can, but while leveling, I have never done any damage as a healer. Its not that I do not want to do any damage, its just that the mobs die soo fast, its pointless for me to go in Cleric Stance and out.

[LunaFaye]

"When you've healed all there is to heal, there may be time to weave in some offensive magics." - Hall of the Novice

So there went that theory, even the most basic healer training promotes it.

WHM:
Regen, since it creates so much aggro, you'll be offensive for the whole run.
Medica II before pull, some people love to live dangerous
SS on pull, again you'll be offensive enough, especially when you end up with those "standard" tanks that can't hold hate for the life of them.

SCH:
Eos on sic, do I need to say something else?
Adlo/SS on pull

AST:
No idea, never leveled that class and probably won't level it in the future.

Some people think that's their offensive magics, and no matter what you tell them, that's all they gonna do. Obviously I made this post because it's funny when you think about that. There are people out there, that really believe in that kind of play style. Not gonna judge, it can be funny at times.

[Kaeoni]

Premade groups are not solution to the state of DF. It just allows the player to avoid the issue. Some players are okay with that, some are trying to propose changes that could make DF better. Of course there are suggestions that could lead to more actively toxic community, but that is again matter of perspective. Personally I see bigger problem with the passively toxic community - players who are not doing their best while joining groups of random people. I can deal with a jerk, dealing with a person who sux and you don't know what is the reason behind it is much more difficult.

It is an avoidance, you're right. But it's a solution still, Because it exists and the end result is the same. If you know there's an 30 minute delay due to construction at an intersection, I wouldn't suggest to someone "Just deal with it" I'd tell them to take a different road ya know?

How do we fix this? How do we make players more responsible for their actions with the current tools? Unless there is a fixed feature that would motivate players to pay attention and play better I don't think we can fix this. For the Party Finder we could maybe talk about server wide black lists, but DF has absolutely no consequences beyond the small chance of getting kicked, which is funnily so low because many players are afraid of being reported for harassment.

Now here's the problem, You can't make anyone DO anything. You can only incentivize. Instead of wanting to punish them and possibly marginalize them, I want to help encourage them to get better, even if it's trickery in how I'm perceiving to do it. Video games teach us a lot of things inherently through game design, whether you'd like to believe it or not. DF is an anonymous way to do a lot of things in the game normally in the past and irl you would never be able to get away with. And yes, I'm 100% sure people abuse that. But for the sake of the good ones out there who are genuinely not abusing the system (and we can't separate them from the actual baddies), we can't punish them in a way which would make them hostile towards the game.

I'd be upset if I was rated down because I DPS on Sch. The list of problems that could punish people who are really actually trying to improve are extensive. Some people just don't agree with some play-styles, It's evident here even. and You know what? That's fine, i'm not going to argue with you about it. But we will never have the information available to make that call. I don't think Duty Finder is bad. I think It's just -some- people. Some people just don't have common courtesy. Because Like I said, I just wanna have fun pressing buttons with people. But if you're not pressing buttons. I can't hold a gun to your head. I can only suggest that it's fun to press buttons and because you press buttons, You might get a feelgood commendation from the others in your group allowing you to get cool shit few people might have.

[Khemorex]

well if we start to bring real life reasons in here , ill give you a good example how someone looks from a different point of view if hes playing at 120% XD

lets say ur at the highway and u drive with 120% of the allowed , now u meat up someone whos at 80% of the allowed but u cant pass him coz theres only one lane , and u need to share the road :P
now the guy whos at 120% starts raging at the one that is driving with 80% making all kind of weird reasons why the other one should drive faster :P
Now the guy at 120% thinks hes in the total right to pick up to other guys rear and wave all kinds of curses with his hand :P hes so blinded from his arrogance coz hes driving like for ages now , that he dosnt notice that
the guy at 80% simply dosnt want to drive that fast and enjoy the scenery or whatever :P also the 120% guy forgot about manners and to let a bit of space to the front dude safety distance it was called :P

well i could go on like this more :P

so the road is there to be shared by all, u dont own it, consideration goes in both ways :P if u cant pass then tone ur voice down it just makes u look like a total jerk from the outside :P

edit : spelling XD

[AlphaFox]

Either way its been fought for ages and I am sure even other games deal with the whole "Just cus your a healer doesn't mean you can't help attack". If the pulls are manageable and I still see the healer sitting there doing nothing, I don't even get mad anymore. I just sigh and look to the DPS to see who will get my commendation.

[vp_cmc]

so the road is there to be shared by all, u dont own it, consideration goes in both ways :P if u cant pass then tone ur voice down it just makes u look like a total jerk from the outside :P

So..
1. It looks for me like that 80% guy (and 80% is ok, people complaining about <50%) owns the road
2. We need two lanes, one for fast driving cars, other for slower ones.

[Judge_Xero]

If you'd rather take it easy and look around, why not take the bus?

Driving less than the posted speed limit and not having your focus on the road is both reckless and dangerous.

[Mattelot]

This has always been a silly argument, IMO. You're not going only as a role but also as your class. If you weren't meant to DPS when the opportunity was available, why do WHM's have Stone, Aero and Holy? Why do SCH's have DoTs for days? Malefic and Gravity for AST? They'r tools in your kit that you talk about. I'm a support role, you don't see me tossing up mana turret and going afk. It really just boils down to you proclaiming your desire to not improve, which is worse than a standalone bad player because at least one day they might get better.

People like to solo sometimes, so they're gonna need damage abilities. Also, I don't see you doing anything. Never played with you. If that's how you played, nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. You may think my play style is worse than whatever you want. There are tons of people who feel the same. It's not your duty to change our minds. You sure as heck are not changing mine.

[Cakekizyy]

If you'd rather take it easy and look around, why not take the bus?

Driving less than the posted speed limit and not having your focus on the road is both reckless and dangerous.

Not as dangerous as those speeding and not paying attention.

[Greedalox]

People like to solo sometimes, so they're gonna need damage abilities. Also, I don't see you doing anything. Never played with you. If that's how you played, nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. You may think my play style is worse than whatever you want. There are tons of people who feel the same. It's not your duty to change our minds. You sure as heck are not changing mine.

Oh you are mistaken, I have no issue with people who intentionally gimp themself and admit that its stemmed from laziness. I have issue with people who intentionally gimp themself in the name of playstyle when it's just laziness. Plus, people do have the right to tell you how to play, it's also your right to not listen. It's also tough to defend a "better" way of playing in your case even in the most subjective case, one option is keeping the team alive and contributing to damage, the other is keeping the team alive.

"Well I just won't use a third of my kit, it's my choice and my playstyle.", people who do this are lazy and that's A-ok!

This isn't a MOBA or anything, there isn't really much for -off meta- playstyles, we don't have many options with unique gear options or stats. If we had those, maybe truly different play styles would exist... but they don't here. We're left with ZDPS Healers and Ice Mages which in the most bastardized sense are unique play styles and really pushing the term.