I guess it's time

[RobbieH]

I would. I honestly hate how grindy the relic is now and prefer to get the token weapons instead. If relic was so irreplaceable

I'm happy the relic is grindy, something to keep people busy, better than getting it in 2 days like the usual.

Why would you want it not to be grindy? So you can go afk faster in Limsa or Ydyllshire?

I agree however that relic is easy to replace, relics should be the most powerful weapons in the game, instead we get something just to keep us busy and relic only seems to matter when it's already late.

From a raiders point of view relic is a waste of time and brings nothing new to the table, unless someone hasn't beat A7S yet for the i240 weapon upgrade, relic in this game is just a glamour, yet another design flaw.

They could make it better by making the relic available from the start and not one patch later, it would be relevant by then.

[Judah_Brandt]

Quick question for the person who said they want their weapons and equipment to remain relevant "longer than one month before being replaced by a tome weapon." So if Alexander Midas 4 Savage was cleared on March 10th, and it drops an i240 weapon, and it is now July..... Did the max ilvl change and I'm completely oblivious to it??? Oh wait, it didn't. Which would mean *gasp* that people have had a weapon that's lasted them for three months so far! And if the next weapon ilvl increase is, say, 3.4, would that mean that the effective longevity of these items is actually relevant? How long do you really want to use the same sword. Really. Honestly.

I'll sum up what I've seen about weapons so far in this thread:

Lore: Too much Grinding!

Midan: Too much Work!

Anima: Too much Grinding, too much Work!

So the effective solution that the majority has been clamouring for here is to add Notorious Monsters from FFXI, and make them drop an RNG based weapon. Which is just more grinding or more work. At worst, you'd have people camping it and creating a toxic environment like they did in XI. At best, everyone gets credit and the new endgame is standing around in the woods until X monster pops and killing it. What a diverse endgame content solution you have, pure genius. These ideas suck.

[Claymore65]

While I've been very positive overall, I don't mean to say there's no room for improvement. In fact, there is plenty. Content like Diadem could use a revamp, and I think there is a place for more varied dungeon designs, although I'll admit the "Hallway + bosses" dungeon design is a direct response to speedrunners, since it seems like many players would skip the optional areas anyway. I would love to see some more meaningful character customization personally as well. I still think the game is in a good place overall, but that doesn't mean I don't wan to see it evolve or improve over time.

I just disagree with some of the suggestions here. For example, I don't think "Open World dungeons + NMs" is the "end all be all" solution. I actually much prefer instanced dungeons to waiting for monsters to pop on the map, just as I prefer easier, quicker travel times. Other players, however, prefer long, very dangerous open-worlds that require a party to travel through (a la FFXI). Neither of us are wrong for our preferences, but unfortunately the game is going to have difficulty satisfying both of those urges. I feel like Diadem has the potential to serve as a "Dangerous Open World Adventure", but it would need some improvements first. For example, if it's supposed to stay dangerous for a long period of time, it should probably have some kind of ilevel synch on it or at least an optional one. I also heavily disagree with things like bringing back the Elemental Wheel, since it will just lead to inevitable balance issues down the road. While it's fun in a single player game, it's less fun to exclude jobs purely based on the elemental traits of a fight. I also find the current grinding pace is pretty casual and new player friendly, with players able to feel relevant in newer content without putting in a ton of hours. For example, I like how leveling in FFXIV doesn't take too long, and I always feel like I can get a good bit done even in a small amount of time.

Namely, the topic of "Longevity" is a very tricky subject. Some players would love to grind 3 months to have a weapon that lasts 3 years, while others prefer much more frequent gear upgrades. It seems like, at least for a lot of people, the "longevity" of a piece of content is literally only tied to what gear it gives, and nothing else. That's certainly a possible problem, whether because people don't find the content fun enough to clear at least once without heavy awards, or because the rewards aren't good enough. There probably do need to be some improvements in the itemization structure, perhaps by slowing down the rate of ilevel increases, but once again that's a tricky problem to solve. If people go too long in between gear upgrades, they'll likely get bored and feel like they have nothing to strive for. If it's too soon (as some in this thread believe), then people think it's not worth getting the gear. It's a tricky conundrum, and one that perhaps the Devs will need to consider in the future.

They could make it better by making the relic available from the start and not one patch later, it would be relevant by then.

That's something I definitely agree with. Relics should come out around the same time as ilvl increases. Ideally the Relic would be a much slower way to acquire a Raid Quality weapon without actually raiding, while Raid weapons should be acquired much quicker. It's still going to be tough to balance the timing between the two though, without making the Relic too much of slog.

[Hayward]

So, lets keep all rewards underwhelming so people are not compelled to strive for such rewards? Sorry, but that seems like a terrible point to make. You should feel the pinch if you pass up on doing the equivalent of a legendary weapon. This whole idea that content should be less important or enticing so you are not compelled to do it creates a self defeating facet to every new patch. Why bother with x, y, or z reward when the gear is underwhelming and can be replaced in a matter of 2-3 months?

That attitude is one of the biggest problems with this game.

And your solution would be exclusivity on steroids the way XI was? Try proposing that to anyone who was a Paladin there and didn't have the patience or connections to get an Excalibur/Almace and Aegis/Ochain. I defy you to tell anyone in this forum that PF wouldn't be littered with "Aegis/Ochain PLD only" comments.

[Zojha]

If people go too long in between gear upgrades, they'll likely get bored and feel like they have nothing to strive for.

This is something that can already happen with tome gear, if people are stat focused, have decked out their main job, have no desire to gear up alt jobs and have no means to do Savage for whatever reason. These people quite frequently stop playing until further upgrades are available. Basically, about 12 weeks after a catch-up patch like this, these people (again) have no reason to log in anymore. To deck out oneself in tome gear also takes around 14 weeks. That is roughly 3 months. I wager it happens much sooner for successful Savage raiders.

[vp_cmc]

It's the same 20% rule, that is valid for all software, not just for games. People use 20% of features. BUT! Different people use different 20%, so you can't just remove 80% of features.

[Mutemutt]

There is really no reason everyone should be entitled to have the best weapon/gear in the game so we can all be equal,relic wouldn't be irreplaceable because not everyone would have it and you can still farm your token to obtain a pretty good weapon but not the best one which if you want you have to work harder. Everything should be proportionate at the effort you put in to obtain it, right now the relic isn't, same can be said for raid (savage) gear.
Right now everyone is just a copy of the player next to him because there is no variety at all and the gear is so easy to obtain that there is really no sense of exclusiveness if everyone is equal, it really kills the purpose of having strong gear because there is really no strong gear but just a standard where everyone needs to adapt, that's why everyone only cares about raising their item level and not about what interesting piece they are wearing.

I'm just not keen on gear lasting for long stretches of time because, for me, that feels like the sense of progress stagnates for long stretches of time. I'm okay with where savage tier gear sits right now, honestly. That's not to say that I'm dead set against trying to make it "better" in some way.

Oh, and I actually think the relic quest is too rewarding for the effort put into, but that's just because I hate that time-gated stuff is anywhere near as rewarding as the merit based gear. I just place little value on things you just grind for; I really see the relic as just another token weapon with a fancy skin and a story tied to it. If I had my way, the nidhogg ex weapon and any other weapon you got from an ex trial in the middle of a raid tier would be better than a relic.

So, lets keep all rewards underwhelming so people are not compelled to strive for such rewards? Sorry, but that seems like a terrible point to make. You should feel the pinch if you pass up on doing the equivalent of a legendary weapon. This whole idea that content should be less important or enticing so you are not compelled to do it creates a self defeating facet to every new patch. Why bother with x, y, or z reward when the gear is underwhelming and can be replaced in a matter of 2-3 months?

That attitude is one of the biggest problems with this game.

What you have to understand is that feeling like I have to grind out content in such a way that it is much worse than boring just because it's very useful for the content I do have an interest in, is actively frustrating for me. I've lost count of how often I've decided to work on the relic because it's actually a better weapon than what I get otherwise, only to literally fall asleep or to become so bored that I play a different game entirely. So yes, I'm happy there is a somewhat viable alternative to the relic grind.

Why do I bother grabbing it now if it'll be replaced 3 months later? Easy. I'm looking to use this gear now, not 3 months after the fact. That there is better gear to grab later is an upside for me as the opposite has a stagnating feel to it.

[zosia]

Quick question for the person who said they want their weapons and equipment to remain relevant "longer than one month before being replaced by a tome weapon." So if Alexander Midas 4 Savage was cleared on March 10th, and it drops an i240 weapon, and it is now July..... Did the max ilvl change and I'm completely oblivious to it??? Oh wait, it didn't. Which would mean *gasp* that people have had a weapon that's lasted them for three months so far! And if the next weapon ilvl increase is, say, 3.4, would that mean that the effective longevity of these items is actually relevant? How long do you really want to use the same sword. Really. Honestly.
I'll sum up what I've seen about weapons so far in this thread:

Lore: Too much Grinding!

Midan: Too much Work!

Anima: Too much Grinding, too much Work!

So the effective solution that the majority has been clamouring for here is to add Notorious Monsters from FFXI, and make them drop an RNG based weapon. Which is just more grinding or more work. At worst, you'd have people camping it and creating a toxic environment like they did in XI. At best, everyone gets credit and the new endgame is standing around in the woods until X monster pops and killing it. What a diverse endgame content solution you have, pure genius. These ideas suck.

or you can stop being obtuse and look at the reality of the situation that all raiders don't have midas 4s down march 10th. Great, like 5 groups in the world get 1 reward item that lasts longer than a few months. Your point falls apart when you look at the rest of the gear slots. Your point falls apart once you accept that every raid group =/= world first progression. Your point falls apart when even non-raid gear, such as the relic, is trivialized within a month of obtaining it. Your point is so absurd, you only have to look at niddhog ex to see that rewards are just totally out of whack in this game. Why didn't niddhog ex drop a set of 240 rings? Why are half of our trials in this game offering subpar subraid ilvl loot rewards? Please, go back and reconsider your point. Painting with such broad and general strokes comes off as ignorant and insensitive, and that is the last thing this flailing game needs.

There is more depth to these arguments than your simple straw manning of everyone points here. People want rewards to feel rewarding. People want rewards to last longer than three months. I am sorry that is a difficult pill for you to swallow.

As to what my idea would be? All Ex trials should drop max ivl raid equivalent accessories. My favorite slot to suggest would be rings since you never really get any selection with max ilevel rings. EX primals were worth doing at some point (Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda EX) because they gave people gear choices outside of tomestone and raid gear. There was also a weekly quest that rewarded ilvl90 weapons. That was a fantastic system.

The relic should require trials and primals again.

SE needs to slow down with it's vertical progression so rewards remain valuable. Did you know you needed zero pieces of gear from gordias savage going into midas savage? eikon gear invalidated everything but weapons since pentamelded eikon gear was so powerful. The whole point of farming BiS from Gordias to prepare for Midas was completely moot. The rewards from Goridas might as well have been vanity skins.

SE needs to nurse back to life the sense of risk vs reward in this game. This could be done by making monster more dangerous or making the open world more dangerous. Without a sense of danger or risk, the sense of worth accompanying an activity is diminished.

There are plenty of good ideas to be had other than your straw man imitations of what you think are the arguments of this thread.

What you have to understand is that feeling like I have to grind out content in such a way that it is much worse than boring just because it's very useful for the content I do have an interest in, is actively frustrating for me. I've lost count of how often I've decided to work on the relic because it's actually a better weapon than what I get otherwise, only to literally fall asleep or to become so bored that I play a different game entirely. So yes, I'm happy there is a somewhat viable alternative to the relic grind.

Why do I bother grabbing it now if it'll be replaced 3 months later? Easy. I'm looking to use this gear now, not 3 months after the fact. That there is better gear to grab later is an upside for me as the opposite has a stagnating feel to it.

This is what the casual players wanted. Everyone made a big stink over including trials and primals in the relic. Gone are the days where earning your relic was more about skill and less about a time sink. I wish it was the other way around where you could work on your relic like a true legendary weapon. the only legendary thing about the relic is the legendary grinds SE seems to love.

So, don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you about how boring the relic is.

[zosia]

delete button

[Daemius]

Just coming in here to say NMs dropping relevant gear sounds awful. Did people really enjoy things like camping Valkurm Emperor? I know I didn't.

I think a compromise is possible between keeping casuals relevant and giving raiders the merits they want without making the entire endgame hardcore only. Keep tome ilvl similar to raid content crud so casuals have a shot at some content if they choose to do so. Make raid content crud drop idk, set items that give unique bonuses of some kind? Glows, titles, overall cosmetic changes (IE Trangs set in D2), you could even add set bonuses like the GC gear gave. While you can't give out cool stats like "MP Refresh +20" given how streamlined stats are, you could give out more secondary stats like those sets did so that raiders can still say they're the best. It would be even better if those secondary stat boosts gave you that much of an easier time when new content is released.