Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[Kaze3434]

Sigh.

You continuous keep trying to twist this into a "Me vs. You" scenario-- as though I'm arguing against additional content on the basis I, personally, dislike it. That isn't the case nor has it ever been. What I am saying is the vast majority of people currently playing Final Fantasy XIV do not care about the content you like. That is a statistical fact, and has nothing to do with one individual players' preferences.

Redesigning the entire gear structure to accommodate for a portion of the community that makes up only a fraction of the overall subscriber base makes no sense. Their priority objective is the financial viability of FFXIV. When people prefer midcore content and glamour, that is who they will cater towards because those people make up the majority. You don't. This game doesn't have infinite resources, thus they must allocate their budget based on what will garner the most profit.

You're approaching this from a player perspective-- specifically a bored raider wanting more content you enjoy. While I certainly appreciate that, my argument has been on the profitability of FFXIV. I'm not speaking about it as a player, but a business. Put another way, if we estimate 5% of the community raids (current clear rates suggest it's less, but semantics), whereas the overall active playerbase is 800,000 (an in-depth reddit survey concluded such an amount back in January). This shows 40,000 people raid, and therefore prioritize gear. 760,000 don't.

If you're a business, who do you invest the bulk of your resources towards? 40,000 raiders or 760,000 "casuals"?

Bear in mind, this are only rough estimates.

Now that doesn't mean the game should remain static and not explore new content. But "new content" is things like Deep Dungeon and Aquapolis not putting buffs or stats on gear.

that part right there. the "crazy" thing that is being asked for would be for both.

[SpookyGhost]

Well then like everyone has said, people are going to find the best set of gear and use it if it isn't balanced well enough.

Balanced "well enough" and balanced "perfectly" are 2 different things. Also, what I mean is balanced in relation to eachother - IE played absolutely optimally, one set will outdo the other in some regard that makes it "better". However, you don't need to play absolutely optimally in any content in the entire game. A3S and A4S used to exist, but now they don't, and even those only required that precision in early progression. If you do, fantastic, you will do slightly more [whatever] than the person with the unoptimal build. Do you think XIV's community will not only expect players to use a certain build but also play absolutely perfectly to achieve slightly higher [whatever]? Because no, they won't, they'll take either as long as they're able to do their job well enough to beat the thing. BRD and MCH aren't perfectly balanced, yet many many teams have one or the other. Same with PLD/DRK.

Yes 3-5 five months later. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's how long it took for WM and GB to finally get fixed, I think PLD is STILL getting passed over in raids, and of course a raid wouldn't THINK about going without a Scholar, leaving the other two healers to fight over the one spot.

Balance patches can come in as little as a week or two. WM/GB was a minor overall issue, and the actual balance between MCH and BRD required massive changes to multiple different abilities. PLD is the same, and also had to adjust to the STR/VIT changes - it also is completely fine right now and anyone "passing over it" is deluded - Lucrezia has been gone for awhile now, friends, and you're never going to be in Elysium. Get the min/max mentality out of your skull. Needing a SCH and a WAR for raiding content is an on-going issue that hasn't been addressed, which is something I will gladly admit (as I think something needs to be done about it), but to say that "these massive overhauls weren't done in 2 weeks, so clearly balancing one Trait/Talent/Secondary/whatever will take 3 months as well". It's just not the same.

[lulunami]

Game companies typically cater towards casual players since they are the largest population and tend to spend the most money. Basically all of the most popular games on Twitch.tv heavily favor towards accommodating the casual player base. All of Blizzard's games are extremely casual-centric, with the exception of Starcraft II. Consquently, Starcraft II is a dead game.

Casual gamers like pretty graphics and simplicity. Harder core player prefer depth, complexity and high skill caps.

I do not think there is a perfect game out there for me, but if FFXIV development team can create more interesting game play mechanics such as Deep Dungeon, that would hopefully interest the harder core crowd to play this game. Creating casual content like minions, emotes, and housing items is easier to do since you just hire artists to create it during development downtime like other cash-shop, DLC skins, etc.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

that part right there. the "crazy" thing that is being asked for would be for both.

And I addressed that in the very post you quoted. FFXIV doesn't have infinite resources. Implementing a redesign of this caliber would basically be the 4.0 expansion. Why would they prioritize the bulk of their budget to a small fraction of the community? They can't do something like this and then add features like the Aquapolis, Deep Dungeon or an actual good Diadem. And that still doesn't answer what purpose putting buffs/stat effects or whatever else on gear has. People will always gravitate towards the best. Case in point, the new Anima weapon lets you customize your stats. People come into MrHappy's stream daily and ask what stats to focus on. He tells them Crit/Det because that's the best allocate for a net DPS increase. So the customization features boils down not getting stuck with a crappy secondary stats.

[EdwinLi]

----

Well that is the thing with releasing new Content. Not everyone will be satisfied with it as they have different or slightly similar preference on what they deem fun for them.

As much people want to some how have a constant release of that "Ideal" content where both the hardcore and casual will both enjoy for a very long time down to the core it is mostly impossible to achieve as the "Ideal" content is seen differently by everyone.

There is no such thing as "Perfect" after all. Only "Ideal" to what one perceive for themselves.

[Vivi_Bushido]

Give up.
Your fate has already been sealed.

Balmung has spoken.

Glamour is the true endgame.

Balmung has spoken.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Glamour is the true endgame.

Balmung has spoken.

We do have a direct line to Yoshi on Live Letters. ;P

[Zari]

A decent part of a lot of the talking here on both sides (though mostly the for horizontal side) feels to me like "i dont like this so how can ANYONE possibly like this?"

[HeavenlyArmed]

And I addressed that in the very post you quoted. FFXIV doesn't have infinite resources. Implementing a redesign of this caliber would basically be the 4.0 expansion. Why would they prioritize the bulk of their budget to a small fraction of the community? They can't do something like this and then add features like the Aquapolis, Deep Dungeon or an actual good Diadem. And that still doesn't answer what purpose putting buffs/stat effects or whatever else on gear has. People will always gravitate towards the best. Case in point, the new Anima weapon lets you customize your stats. People come into MrHappy's stream daily and ask what stats to focus on. He tells them Crit/Det because that's the best allocate for a net DPS increase. So the customization features boils down not getting stuck with a crappy secondary stats.

No, it absolutely would not "basically be the 4.0 expansion." As I've explained already god knows how many times, there are very easy ways to implement these things that would not require a massive overhaul of anything. And not to mention the fact that there will likely be room for a new stat to be added in 4.0 anyway, due to the devs openly considering the removal of accuracy from gear due to not being a fun stat, so there's no reason to not fill that open slot with a stat players might get some enjoyment from the existence of. We've had stat reworks in the past, both in patches such as the 3.2 VIT adjustment for tanks and in the 3.0 expansion where Skill/Spell Speed, Crit, and Determination all had adjustments made to how they fundamentally work. So no, this claim is completely wrong.

As for your "people will always gravitate towards the best" comment, which I've already dealt with a number of times, there are a number of factors that could be used to mitigate this effect, such as exclusivity by locking it behind some other type of content, scaling which could cause the "best" stat to change based on how much is available to you (we already see hints of this in certain jobs that can change their rotations based on different Skill Speed amounts), or in the case of my Mastery idea it being readily available to everyone anyway and people just wanting to play the job slightly differently, which would have the potential to be allowed in such a system and with proper balancing wouldn't cause any rifts outside of the top end of the raid scene, as in server/world first raiding.

Your introductory post essentially called people idiots who post here because they have a differing opinion. News flash, your ideas of how things ought to be improved are not necessarily the end all be all. And in spite of your smugness, you have yet to refute my "textbook definition." Plenty of people? Do you mean a handful in this thread. The raid and forum communities make up a decidedly small portion of the overall fanbase. I'm not debating against horizontal progression out of some personal vendetta towards the system. I'm point to the statistical disparage between players such as yourself and the majority.

Okay, first off, I find it hilarious how you quoted the phrase textbook definition without any understanding whatsoever of how I used it. What the phrase meant there is that you are being obtuse exactly as it is defined in the dictionary, in that you're not actually listening to anything anyone is saying against you and are instead just repeating the same arguments that people have defeated throughout this thread. Plenty of people refers to the variety of people who have expressed interest in not just this thread, but every thread of a similar topic that has ever appeared (which there are tons of) and the countless times Yoshi-p has been asked about it. Say what you will, but there is very clearly a demand for this.

Let's take a step back and consider something. The most popular server in the entire game is Balmung; a server dedicated to writers who create characters as though they were writing a story. Likewise, glamour is exceptionally popular-- to the extent people were elated over a maid outfit and the release of FFX minions. Sleipnir has brought in an estimated million dollars since being put on the Cash Shop. That's the equivalent of nearly 80,000 one month subscribers for a horse that cannot even fly.

Simply put, the overwhelming majority prefer casual to midcore content. If the amount of people your post implies cared about horizontal progression, or their gear at all, FFXIV wouldn't continue to be as popular as it is. This has nothing to do with my personal interests or preferences, but statistics.

Next you go on to effectively argue that since casual players exist as the largest demographic that SE should not put any extra resources into pleasing other demographics. I shouldn't need to explain why this is wrong, but I'll do it anyway. First off, the hardcore playerbase is an important demographic to keep happy. These people by their nature are the most dedicated to your game, and as such are the most likely to be trying to get others interested in the game as well. If they go, and you lose your most dedicated players, the best word of mouth advertising you had available is gone. Players who remain at that point are by definition not as likely to care about trying to spread the word about the game, because they aren't as dedicated to it. This would, clearly, cause harm to the game as the number of incoming players would decrease. Now, I know what you're thinking. Not all players who are hardcore would be in the demographic of players who want additional depth in some areas. While this is true to some extent, I'm sure there are some players who would consider themselves hardcore RPers, it's also the case that there are players outside of the hardcore demographic that would be interested in this as well. So your argument fails in its relevance, as well as in the point it tries to make. Also of note, my original post never implied any sort of numbers. I'm fully aware that there are a lot of people who play for RP or glamour or other things that in my mind have no depth to them nor do they need depth to them. It doesn't take away from these things to consider my suggestions though.

And in response to your question regarding my gear. No, I don't. Why? Because I don't need it yet to progress from where I am in the Main Story. In fact, I am overgeared, and will remain so for a longtime still. The only reason I don't have Eikon gear on MNK is because it isn't level 60 yet. I opted to level crafters so I could make it all myself. Once I reach 60, I'll craft it and work on my weeklies to upgrade to eventual BiS. Like everyone else interested in some form of raiding.

I fail to see the point you're trying to make here. People who do not have ilvl 220+ gear either don't care about raiding, and therefore gear stats are irrelevant to them, or are newer players who simply haven't progressed far enough.

You don't see how this fact defeats your argument about how everyone will only ever go for what's the most optimal in all situations? You can't see how you yourself are a counterexample to your own argument as someone who is not currently building your BiS set? And as I've already mentioned in numerous other replies, there are plenty of other factors working against this idea as well, and the exact number of factors varies depending on the way that you're talking about having this implemented.

Despite your prior rebuttal several pages back, you just described the STR vs. VIT debate that inevitably saw STR tanking cannibalize its counterpart when new tanks asked veteran players what gear they should choose and were told STR accessories. The same will happen with putting buffs or traits on equipment. New players will ask veterans what they think is best, or look it up themselves, and grind for it. After all, why wouldn't they? And yes, I'm aware you could balance things better so one stat didn't dominate the other so readily, but people will still opt for the perceived "best" because of the aforementioned reasons.

There are so many ways to mitigate this effect to being completely negligible that I almost don't want to address it. Put the new stats/effects at endgame where new inexperienced players won't even be able to worry about it until they have a grasp on all the more fundamental concepts they need to learn, and of course balancing it better both from the content side and the side of the stats/effects themselves does a lot to mitigate this as well. STR vs VIT wasn't well balanced at all from either side, as content did need the extra damage of STR tanking as shown by the fact that many groups were unable to clear A4S at 3.2 launch despite having multiple clears in 3.1 and STR had too many benefits over the minimal benefit having extra HP gave you in general.

An even better example of this is healer DPS. Look at how quickly people who refuse to DPS as healers are frowned on or outright shunned. No content in this game actually requires any healer DPS, but those who refrain are deemed "lazy" for no other reason than their preference isn't considered optimal. In fact, you'll often see people more forgiving of inexperienced players messing up mechanics than if a prefer says "I only want to heal because I don't like DPSing." Melding is another comparable example. DPS and Tanks are toward Crit and Det no matter what despite having other options like Skill Speed. Why? Crit and Det are better.

First off, no content in the game currently requires healer DPS. This distinction is important because Gordias did exist as relevant content and in there it was an absolute necessity. Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove general cases either. You may encounter more forgiveness for mechanical uselessness than healers not doing damage, but that doesn't mean that this is necessarily the general case. The fact that some tanks will literally not play with healers who do damage is a good counterexample, and most of the time you'll get nothing more than a small groan if a healer isn't dpsing in their spare time unless you're doing the high end content. It's almost ironic that you even make this argument, as it's mainly you listening to the small minority that you're telling us SE shouldn't listen to and treating that as though it's true in general.

Redesigning the current gear structure so some pieces can have a trait buff or stat effect that serves no real purpose beyond an illusion of choice will pull resources away from new content, fights and etc. And the majority of players either won't care about it whatsoever, or determine the BiS and choose that.

No it won't, and I've explained why above.

Yep. Mastery was introduced into WoW, and other stats were revised and/or eliminated. And it only took 13 months between the last content update and the new expansion to implement it.

Are you willing to wait that long?

Right, because Cataclysm only took a while to release after the last patch of Wrath (12 months btw, not 13) because they added this stat, not because they did things like overhaul the world A Realm Reborn style and add far more content than most MMOs would see added in an expansion pack.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No, it absolutely would not "basically be the 4.0 expansion." As I've explained already god knows how many times, there are very easy ways to implement these things that would not require a massive overhaul of anything. And not to mention the fact that there will likely be room for a new stat to be added in 4.0 anyway, due to the devs openly considering the removal of accuracy from gear due to not being a fun stat, so there's no reason to not fill that open slot with a stat players might get some enjoyment from the existence of. We've had stat reworks in the past, both in patches such as the 3.2 VIT adjustment for tanks and in the 3.0 expansion where Skill/Spell Speed, Crit, and Determination all had adjustments made to how they fundamentally work. So no, this claim is completely wrong.

As for your "people will always gravitate towards the best" comment, which I've already dealt with a number of times, there are a number of factors that could be used to mitigate this effect, such as exclusivity by locking it behind some other type of content, scaling which could cause the "best" stat to change based on how much is available to you (we already see hints of this in certain jobs that can change their rotations based on different Skill Speed amounts), or in the case of my Mastery idea it being readily available to everyone anyway and people just wanting to play the job slightly differently, which would have the potential to be allowed in such a system and with proper balancing wouldn't cause any rifts outside of the top end of the raid scene, as in server/world first raiding.

What you're asking for is not a simple stat adjustment, but a whole new stat itself. Such entails redesigning the entire game's structure to accommodate for these changes. Old content needs to be rebalanced, new content has to add in this extra variable to "keep stats interesting" as you've so eloquently implied. A better example would them adding Rogue, which the devs have said became such an enormous drain on both their resources and the team itself, they will never do classes again outside of an expansion.

Furthermore, traits, buffs and etc have been mentioned throughout this thread. Those are not "very easy" implementations either. You're presuming they need change a few bits of code, some numbers and voila. Now if it code were ever so simple.

Okay, first off, I find it hilarious how you quoted the phrase textbook definition without any understanding whatsoever of how I used it. What the phrase meant there is that you are being obtuse exactly as it is defined in the dictionary, in that you're not actually listening to anything anyone is saying against you and are instead just repeating the same arguments that people have defeated throughout this thread. Plenty of people refers to the variety of people who have expressed interest in not just this thread, but every thread of a similar topic that has ever appeared (which there are tons of) and the countless times Yoshi-p has been asked about it. Say what you will, but there is very clearly a demand for this.

The irony here is astounding. Your entire post presumes to ignore people will not follow along with an established norm despite them doing precisely that even when provided with some degree of customization. We can choose our attributes-- both personal and in the latest Anima step. No one does. Instead, they ask "what stats should I allocate?" And are told which scales best. You cannot ignore this variable because it doesn't suit your argument.

Next you go on to effectively argue that since casual players exist as the largest demographic that SE should not put any extra resources into pleasing other demographics. I shouldn't need to explain why this is wrong, but I'll do it anyway. First off, the hardcore playerbase is an important demographic to keep happy. These people by their nature are the most dedicated to your game, and as such are the most likely to be trying to get others interested in the game as well. If they go, and you lose your most dedicated players, the best word of mouth advertising you had available is gone. Players who remain at that point are by definition not as likely to care about trying to spread the word about the game, because they aren't as dedicated to it. This would, clearly, cause harm to the game as the number of incoming players would decrease. Now, I know what you're thinking. Not all players who are hardcore would be in the demographic of players who want additional depth in some areas. While this is true to some extent, I'm sure there are some players who would consider themselves hardcore RPers, it's also the case that there are players outside of the hardcore demographic that would be interested in this as well. So your argument fails in its relevance, as well as in the point it tries to make. Also of note, my original post never implied any sort of numbers. I'm fully aware that there are a lot of people who play for RP or glamour or other things that in my mind have no depth to them nor do they need depth to them. It doesn't take away from these things to consider my suggestions though.

I do love how you completely gloss over the notion "casual" players may actually invest more time into this game than their "hardcore" counterparts, yet then presume they would have any interest in the system that ultimately serves little purpose to them. People who are not dedicated raiders will not care about stat allocation for the most part. They want actual new content like Deep Dungeon, The Aquapolis, an improved Diadem, more things to craft, and yes, glamour.

And even amongst the raid community itself, people do not unanimously agree horizontal progression is worthwhile. Most want the fights themselves to be more interesting.

You don't see how this fact defeats your argument about how everyone will only ever go for what's the most optimal in all situations? You can't see how you yourself are a counterexample to your own argument as someone who is not currently building your BiS set? And as I've already mentioned in numerous other replies, there are plenty of other factors working against this idea as well, and the exact number of factors varies depending on the way that you're talking about having this implemented.

I don't even know where to begin with this. You've... completely ignored any form of context. I explicitly said my intent was BiS once I reached 60 on MNK. And the only reason I haven't done so yet is because the gear I already have outpaces all of the content I am currently participating in. Upgrading now wouldn't benefit me. That is not a counter example, but a direct adherence to the norm. I have worked out what is "best" relevant to where I am in the story. Anything more is overkill, and a gil loss.

There are so many ways to mitigate this effect to being completely negligible that I almost don't want to address it. Put the new stats/effects at endgame where new inexperienced players won't even be able to worry about it until they have a grasp on all the more fundamental concepts they need to learn, and of course balancing it better both from the content side and the side of the stats/effects themselves does a lot to mitigate this as well. STR vs VIT wasn't well balanced at all from either side, as content did need the extra damage of STR tanking as shown by the fact that many groups were unable to clear A4S at 3.2 launch despite having multiple clears in 3.1 and STR had too many benefits over the minimal benefit having extra HP gave you in general.

But the takeaway remains people chose the most optimal approach and expected that of others. That has remained the crux of my point. STR vs VIT is merely an example of it. At the end of the day once people discover the most efficent way to do something, most will.

First off, no content in the game currently requires healer DPS. This distinction is important because Gordias did exist as relevant content and in there it was an absolute necessity. Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove general cases either. You may encounter more forgiveness for mechanical uselessness than healers not doing damage, but that doesn't mean that this is necessarily the general case. The fact that some tanks will literally not play with healers who do damage is a good counterexample, and most of the time you'll get nothing more than a small groan if a healer isn't dpsing in their spare time unless you're doing the high end content. It's almost ironic that you even make this argument, as it's mainly you listening to the small minority that you're telling us SE shouldn't listen to and treating that as though it's true in general.

Operative word: did. Gordias has since been nerfed, and therefore no longer requires healer DPS. To be fair, I should amend this to "most". Brute Justice isn't exactly forgiving. Nevertheless, the devs have expressly stated they do not take healer DPS into their damage calculations.

How odd. You discredit anecdotal evidence with... anecdotal evidence. If you look over at Youtube, you won't find any videos of difficult content clears where Healers aren't DPSing. In fact, you'll be hard-pressed to find pure healers period. What you will find is plenty of complaining whenever healers refuse to DPS. There's even a thread now about it. And it isn't a small groan. Almost... because it isn't. Most players expect healers to DPS. Which falls in line with my point; people find the most efficient way to complete an objective... and expect everyone to do it. You'll get some leeway in leveling content, but relevant stuff? Not so much.

In any case, we've come to an impasse. So I'll leave it at that.