FFXIV: The State Of Raiding

[Bourne_Endeavor]

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If I'm understanding this correctly, you mean to say people could enter Savage with a smaller than 8 party composition? If so, that would require a massive scale down on difficulty. No matter how good you are at the game, even six people wouldn't come close to completing Midas or Gordias. Hell, even in decked out ilvl 240 gear, you'd still with Thordan EX with less players.

[Colt47]

If I'm understanding this correctly, you mean to say people could enter Savage with a smaller than 8 party composition? If so, that would require a massive scale down on difficulty. No matter how good you are at the game, even six people wouldn't come close to completing Midas or Gordias. Hell, even in decked out ilvl 240 gear, you'd still with Thordan EX with less players.

No that would be a normal group. The idea is more people could go into savage at once and thus reduce difficulty. There would need to be a little scaling on the enemy HP, but otherwise the fight would remain the same.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No that would be a normal group. The idea is more people could go into savage at once and thus reduce difficulty. There would need to be a little scaling on the enemy HP, but otherwise the fight would remain the same.

So essentially a 4-man trial that you could also queue with additional people to make it easier? See, problem with that is 8-man trial content has very specific mechanics that simply wouldn't work with less people. For example, four or six people could never kill the golems fast enough in Turn Nine. The DPS checks alone are far too high if you're not vastly overgeared. You also lose out on certain mechanics like shared damage, tank swaps and etc. Any scaling to compensate for this would render Savage a joke with eight people. I also don't see how this would encourage more of a community feel. Most raid groups would prefer to do it with less people for the challenge, and then stick with their statics.

Savage isn't intended for everyone. While some adjustments could be made, it exists to be extremely challenging. I would much rather see the devs focus on midcore content (Aquapolis, Palace of the Dead, a revised Diadem, more extreme trials), then nerf Savage since that defeats the whole point of it.

[TankHunter678]

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I think what colt means is that a normally 8 man savage raid could be set so that you can 16 man, with some small upward number scaling for the raid mobs. This reduces the chance of a particular person getting drops, but better allows the groups as a whole to power through the content as unlike a normal 8 man setup if one person fucks up there is still an extra 7 people helping pick up the slack.

This makes DPS checks and enrage timers easier to beat, while people would still have to learn the mechanics and the AoE safety dance.

Its going in with more then a standard "True Savage" run. Not with less. While "True Savage" runs would mean an easier time distributing gear.

[Colt47]

I think what colt means is that a normally 8 man savage raid could be set so that you can 16 man, with some small upward number scaling for the raid mobs. This reduces the chance of a particular person getting drops, but better allows the groups as a whole to power through the content as unlike a normal 8 man setup if one person fucks up there is still an extra 7 people helping pick up the slack.

This makes DPS checks and enrage timers easier to beat, while people would still have to learn the mechanics and the AoE safety dance.

Its going in with more then a standard "True Savage" run. Not with less. While "True Savage" runs would mean an easier time distributing gear.

That's exactly what I mean. The problem with raiding is that people are scared to even set foot into the content because we got different sets of people with different sets of expectations going into these fights, and people with less time don't want to be verbally beaten up over not performing as well as a fellow who has more time to spend on learning.

Also, later on people have difficulty even getting a group because some people have learned the fight and don't want to fail it, so they restrict who can join their groups. This makes it harder to do content on a looser schedule as well, as it means keeping track of exactly who has done the fight or not and has the practice in.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I think what colt means is that a normally 8 man savage raid could be set so that you can 16 man, with some small upward number scaling for the raid mobs. This reduces the chance of a particular person getting drops, but better allows the groups as a whole to power through the content as unlike a normal 8 man setup if one person fucks up there is still an extra 7 people helping pick up the slack.

This makes DPS checks and enrage timers easier to beat, while people would still have to learn the mechanics and the AoE safety dance.

Its going in with more then a standard "True Savage" run. Not with less. While "True Savage" runs would mean an easier time distributing gear.

Okay. But why do you need that gear? ilvl 240 is completely useless to non-raiders. It won't make any difference whatsoever if you can't handle mechanics. This also defeats the purpose of Savage. It's intended to be extremely challenging. If you can't handle it, or simply aren't interested. Cool. No one is forcing you. Colt is essentially asking to "casualizes" Savage so everyone can beat it. That's why a normal mode exists.

That's exactly what I mean. The problem with raiding is that people are scared to even set foot into the content because we got different sets of people with different sets of expectations going into these fights, and people with less time don't want to be verbally beaten up over not performing as well as a fellow who has more time to spend on learning.

Also, later on people have difficulty even getting a group because some people have learned the fight and don't want to fail it, so they restrict who can join their groups. This makes it harder to do content on a looser schedule as well, as it means keeping track of exactly who has done the fight or not and has the practice in.

That exclusion won't change because most people queuing for Savage do so for the difficulty. They won't want to bring extras, which make the fight easier. So you would initially get groups that zerg Savage down at a laughable rate for the achievement, then claim they have experience and... fail at a normal 8 man because they pushed mechanics so fast, they never saw half of them. I mean, you could run Brute Justice with 12 DPS. Even averaging an awful 600 DPS, the sheer numbers alone would make Savage a complete joke.

Bluntly stated, some content isn't meant for everyone. These are four fights that if you don't have the time, desire and ability to clear, then they simply aren't for you. It's like asking Dark Souls or Bloodborne to release an "easy mode" so everyone can practice. It defeats the purpose of why the content exists.

[Jetstream_Fox]

Dark Souls or Bloodborne to release an "easy mode"

They do, some weapons in Bloodborne starting out made many parts of the game easier and in Dark Souls certain classes had better abilities and made fights easier. Those aren't exactly easy modes, no, but they do certainly impacts a players ability to learn the games flow and encourage different playthroughs.

[Colt47]

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Actually, it will fix the issue. This was done in some other lesser known titles in the past that failed for other reasons (Nexon... enough said) and the community loved it. It enabled groups to bring in people they knew needed to learn the fight still without impacting their own raiding schedules, and also let organizers make less intensive groups via shout out. Everyone got access to the same gear level and there was basically no grumbling about gear level because everyone, no matter how hardcore, could eventually get the gear. It was just faster to do so via the smallest group possible so tight nit groups (on balmung it would be RareEX), would still be the first to clear content and get it on farm. It worked a lot better than what the developers currently are doing, which is gating gear via time lock and making the highest level gear exclusive to a small niche part of the community.

After all the years of playing MMORPGs, exclusive content has always proven to be a fast track to making your community get angry. Case in point the recent maid outfit promotion being exclusive to Japan. Having content be exclusive to a set number of people due to time of release and difficulty does exactly the same thing, which is what is happening with savage versions of Alexander and even EX primal fights.

[KarstenS]

After all the years of playing MMORPGs, exclusive content has always proven to be a fast track to making your community get angry. Case in point the recent maid outfit promotion being exclusive to Japan.

There is a huge difference between both of them. For the maid outfit it is the country which locks you out. The raid is open to everyone. Its just your own decicion and effort, which locks you out. Its the same like in soccer, football and so on. When you want to be part of the higher sport events, you have to get good enough to become a member in such a team.

Not an experienced raider I'm casual but I stopped trying savage because I would get attacked for one screw bad mouthed called stupid.

When you group up with assholes, there is no way SE can fix the issue.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

They do, some weapons in Bloodborne starting out made many parts of the game easier and in Dark Souls certain classes had better abilities and made fights easier. Those aren't exactly easy modes, no, but they do certainly impacts a players ability to learn the games flow and encourage different playthroughs.

Only in later patch updates not unlike the eventual echo nerf we see. At release, Bloodborne was outright advertised as a game where you will die, repeatedly, endlessly, until you learn.

Actually, it will fix the issue. This was done in some other lesser known titles in the past that failed for other reasons (Nexon... enough said) and the community loved it. It enabled groups to bring in people they knew needed to learn the fight still without impacting their own raiding schedules, and also let organizers make less intensive groups via shout out. Everyone got access to the same gear level and there was basically no grumbling about gear level because everyone, no matter how hardcore, could eventually get the gear. It was just faster to do so via the smallest group possible so tight nit groups (on balmung it would be RareEX), would still be the first to clear content and get it on farm. It worked a lot better than what the developers currently are doing, which is gating gear via time lock and making the highest level gear exclusive to a small niche part of the community.

What purpose does that gear serve though? You only need ilvl 240 to make Savage a slightly easier fight. You can theoretically get by with just ilvl 220 crafted gear and a Sephirot EX weapon. If you aren't looking to challenge yourself to extreme content, where a few mistakes means a wipe, you'll never need better gear. Nevertheless, the problem remains, larger groups wouldn't experience the mechanics, let alone practice them simply due to all the additional damage pushing phases. Even worse, the bosses often enough raid wide mechanics everyone has to do properly. Eight people struggle getting the timing right on Vortexer. Adding even more would be a nightmare, especially with those players lacking experience, skill or both.

And this alone would result in most raid groups restricting their group dynamics.

People aren't grumbling over gear level because those uninteresting in Savage know they'll never have any need of it. I again reiterate, there is not a single piece of content in the entire game where you even ilvl 230, let alone ilvl 240. So if you're having trouble getting a group or the sheer challenge itself is proving too much. Wait for the inevitable echo boost.