Would you like an in-game parser?

[KonOkami]

not really, we can all strive to improove. i play blm on my spare time and i noticed i didnt meet the seph x or most of the stuff dps checks on the dummy trial. took some practice got better, now i can do them fine.
dont blame the tool, blame the person who is using it to shame people, and not bother to help them to learn how to do a better roation.

I agree with everything you said. The people that wanna improve will do so with or without the parser, even though the parser is gonna be a very precious tool for this. The people that don't, well you can usually spot those even without a parser, their performance just screams "I'm only here to get carried" from miles.
And yes, I do see the need for it in EX and Savage content and as I said I'd welcome it there(maybe I didn't phrase it quite right, sorry, it's still early xD ). But imo, stuff like drex and nm trials shouldn't be subjected to this because even subpar performances are enough to clear. Would I like to do a drex in 15mins instead of 25? Sure! Personally my performance can support this and is always nice to end up in a group that performs the same way. But is it something I expect from everyone? No, and it won't ever be. It's content designed for everyone whether they have the drive and time to optimise their performance or can only log for 1-2 hours a day and barely manage to farm half of they stuff they want. A personal parser would be more than enough in that kind of content if all we care about is improving ourselves.

And yes, ofc a tool is not to be blamed for it's usage but unfortunately I don't have enough faith in this community to support the unconditional access to what I believe will become a tool of harassment instead of a tool of improvement. There are already numerous "incidents" posted here and there about people getting bashed for subpar performances in all kinds of content and even though there's no way to know if their performance was indeed bad or not there's one thing there that is indisputable. The way they were treated is horrendous. Even if they were performing badly there's numerous ways to say something but, at least what reaches the forums, is cases where they were being bashed and shamed right away, not polite comments of trying to mix up their rotations, no helpful advice on their skill usage, no encouragement to experiment further.
I wish I had the kind of faith that you seem to have in the general population but I don't. That's why imo the most sensible approach is a personal parser that can be hidden in the HUD options, with the ability to enable a party parser in the party options when you go in somewhere with a premade(which is how you go in Ex and savage anyway, who is blindly queing for them? Especially with raid finder on it's way), the same way min ilvl or undersized are enabled. That way people that are raiding have an invaluable tool in their disposal while the general population is not subjected to a forced feature that they do not wish to have. I think that's the best compromise to please both sides.


tl;dr: people that wanna improve will improve regardless so give parser option in party settings for premades to have this invaluable tool and don't shove it down everyone's throats.

[Seraphix2407]

And yes, ofc a tool is not to be blamed for it's usage but unfortunately I don't have enough faith in this community to support the unconditional access to what I believe will become a tool of harassment instead of a tool of improvement.

I agree with some of what you said. You know when I do expert roulettes, sometimes I do it with random people sometimes I don't.
When I do it with random's I'm sure it will be a slower run, unless I get into a premade party or a very good party of mixed players from different servers. However, it doesn't matter if it's random or not, because I will still play my best. When I do something, I want to get in and out fast, simply makes me avaible to do other things before I have to log out. And yes, not everyone ''needs'' a parser, there are bunch of people who barely do any expert roulettes and such things, but I doubt those people will be casted out. You know, even if those people barely do expert roulettes, doesn't mean they doing it everyday, many prefer to RP, sit in limsa and hang out with their linkshell/fc or their friends in general for example. If they get in roulettes, okay so what if they do 100-200 dps less, myself and others talk about dropping down 50% in roulletes (since you happened to mention it, so I need to reply to this) Just because you don't often do battle content or roulettes, doesn't mean you are allowed to slack 50% of what actuall can do, much as it's not okay for a guy with a parser to harras them.

Oh trust me, many people get advices on their way, they just ignore them, I could list up many examples of what I've seen and done for other players. One of them being my BRD friend, I did roulette with her and she didn't use the stance to do more DPS, wanna know why? Because she wanted to move while doing DMG, is it acceptable? My opinion? no, not really. When you do expert roulette and 450 dps as BRD and just want to make dodgin easier for you, simply because you refuse to use stance? Doesn't work like that. The class after all is designed to use the stance, because you have more cds on the stance.
Well good thing she changed it when I told her she has to keep it up.

But I will ask you a question. Have you ever thought about why people get's told their dps is low? I talk about 30-50% lower than they could be.

It's nice and all but it sill does not answer one question: Why do I have to be parsed because this fellow want a parser ? Why do everybody have to eat pancakes because some of us want them ?

If you want to slack in a party of mine, you shouldn't even be in it after all. If you go in a group of people with same mindset of slackers, things will happens, like not even being avaible to clear it. Put 4 dps at 950 dps in seph extreme, tanks at 500-700 and healers at zero, it would enrage. Just because one of those dps killed it in another group doesn't mean they will kill it in a group with people who does low as them.

Why/how is PLD a dps penality? Have it ever come to your mind people still wipe in seph extreme with 230 weapons and still do low as people who did them with 210 weapons? If 7PLDs could do it nearly 2 months ago, I don't see why a normal group can't do it. But hey it happened, how do we let them improve? Put them on the dummystrike for 3min and hope they beat it? Then if they do, then you see no change in battle. When people judged me using their parser, I knew something was wrong. I didn't sit there and think that I was doing okay just because someone told me I was doing low, it's the opposite, I needed to improve. If there is a thing that could show a large playerbase that they slack, the slackers can no longer backup what they say. Many think they doing good until they see with their own eyes. Oh trust me, many do try to help but people gets all emotional and say they don't need any. And if a parser happens and they still all slack (30-50% lower they should be) then you can no longer help them and they just sit there and expect free runs. /sadface.

[KonOkami]

*snip*

Of course a 30-50% dps less is not an acceptable performance, in anything other than starting content where people are still trying to learn their classes but do you honestly need a parser for that kind of reduced performance? At least for me if someone is performing in that scale it's painfully obvious if you just take a few seconds to see their skill usage.

And yeah, I am not saying the other side doesn't exist where no matter how politely you ask someone to alter their rotation or correct their mistakes eg. healing in stance, even with specific advise how to better it, you are faced with an astonishing silence on their part with no signs of anything changing, or even worse get the whole "Why are you telling me what to do? Do you see me telling you what to do? I'm gonna do as I please and you go please yourself with a cactus!" attitude. This is just as bad as what I mentioned above and I'm not gonna defend any of those people. But fortunately you already have a tool to counter this, Kick Vote.

The demographic I was talking about is those people that do not have any interest in raiding or they do but their rl obligations do not allow them to put the effort and time into a game to achieve what those "hardcore" people achieve, so they stay out of it and stick with the casual content without being a complete drag to everyone(like the 50% cases you mention). I have several cases in my FC and social circle in my server that have been called names in random dungeons(nothing midcore-hardcore) because of their allegedly bad performance, however I've run with them on multiple occasions and can say with certainty they do not belong in that 30%+ performance group. Sure, they're not optimal, but they rarely do less than 300 dps lower than their max.

[Seraphix2407]

But fortunately you already have a tool to counter this, Kick Vote.

I have plenty of friends who never raid or do even extreme primals but many of them doesn't dip lower than 50% of what they could do in roulettes, they still try hard and do pretty good. After all some of them just want to get in and out fast. Yes, I'm aware you do talk about those who doesn't do raids at all, I have few of them in my fc and some of them are hanging around on limsa, but do all of them slack? Not at all, I actually like to put them in my roulettes if anything else. Just because they don't raid doesn't mean they are bad. After all I saw one of them do amazing dps as smn, and do you know why? Because they still try their best, even if they don't raid. There is no excuse to not try. However kick vote doesn't always seem to be an okay thing, I try very hard not to, because when you are in a team you have to respect the people in it. If they do take advice great, if not well... and they have a shit attitudde about it that kick might happen. I do like your post tho.

So we're back to this ? I'm a slacker because I don't want someone to parse me ?

Read my post again.

[KonOkami]

*snip*

We're actually saying the same thing, I don't know why we're not communicating right, maybe I'm not phrasing something right(sorry, english is not my native tongue).
People that perform as badly as 50% down in casual content are inexcusable and those numbers show a clear unwillingness to even try. I can't for the life of me, figure out how you can do that bad dps if you use even half your skills. I do higher than that as the healer!

Maybe the miscommunication is here:

Yes, I'm aware you do talk about those who doesn't do raids at all but do all of them slack?

I'm not talking about the ones not raiding in general. I'm talking about the ones that decide to not impose on raiding groups knowing they can't give the 100% of their class(since that matters in there) but still try to maintain an acceptable performance in all other content.

However kick vote doesn't always seem to be an okay thing, I try very hard not to, because when you are in a team you have to respect the people in it. If they do take advice great, if not well... and they have a shit attitudde about it that kick might happen.

We 100% agree. Respect is a two way street that is not measured in numbers. As long as the other person is putting an effort, even if their performance pales, I'm perfectly happy with it. I especially love running early content and bumping into people starting out a new class and trying to learn it while the whole party cheers them on and offers whatever advise they can! It's the best kind of run for me. I only mentioned the Vote Kick option for those cases where their performance is as bad as you're saying and they are uncommunicative or even worse assault you if you politely tell them anything about it.


But my question remains. For performances as bad as the ones you're describing do you honestly need a parser to recognise them?

[Reisui]

But my question remains. For performances as bad as the ones you're describing do you honestly need a parser to recognise them?

I don't think it's about just recognizing them, but as explaining to the "bad" player that he lacks. Some sort of a proof.
As this is feedback the player could take with him.

[KonOkami]

I don't think it's about just recognizing them, but as explaining to the "bad" player that he lacks. Some sort of a proof.
As this is feedback the player could take with him.

Yes, but that can be achieved with a personal parser too. Everyone will inevitably start hearing left and right about the numbers everyone is hitting so they'll have a good idea of what the number is that they're supposed to reach. hell ,we even know these numbers now that parsers are "illegal".

[Seraphix2407]

But my question remains. For performances as bad as the ones you're describing do you honestly need a parser to recognise them?

No your English is good and I understand it, yes we are on the same page, I'm only saying why a parser should exist (in a hidden way) So I will make myself clear and answer your question:
Yes and no. First of all, I mind my own business when I do raids, primals or even roulettes. My job, if its a healer I focus healer and don't focus on what other people do, I focus on my own mechanics and the class I play on, otherwise I'll half ass it. If I keep look for flaw, I will end up being one in the party, not always the case, I can notice a bad group when boss dies slower than it usually does.
You can see a bad dps without a parser yes, but why do we I want one in the game to recongnise them? Well as I stated, I mind own my business and then see after whos doing low or high. Then a parser would be on everyone's screen and they can see how good or bad they do. The good thing having that showing up for bad players is because many who are in denial can finally see the truth and it's not something people say for fun they are doing low or bad, it's simply the truth. Truth hearts for some people, keep in mind many, many players think they do great until they find out they don't and they have to ''restart'' their class.

So to make it short, yes we do, because they have to realize how bad they are doing and how much of a burden they are in a group. How can a person know they do bad, even when they get told? By the source itself, simple.

Edit: Saw your post. Yes it can be with a personal parser, however, how do people know if they do good or bad if there are no info of other people in party? If 1 guy does 1400 and everyone else do 600 in hidden parser, how can they know? If its a open one they can see and compare themselves.

[Reynhart]

Read my post again.

Unless the first part of your post is for me too, the "slacking" part is the answer you gave to me.

Why you nitpick thats okay everybody can see when a tank or a healer is failing to do its job?

Do you see exatcly how much damage the tank took ? Do you see exactly how much healing everyone received ? Do you see how overheal everyone received ?
Having a parser does not show if the DPS are failing to do their job. If your party does not meet the DPS checks, you'll realize very soon. What the parser can show, and why I don't really like them, is how above the DPS are succeeded, and how that "above" can be not enough for some.

Since you're a healer, let me ask you this. You're in a 8-man party. The fights goes with no death, but, in the end, you realize the other healer healed for a noticeable amount below you. Would you say that he failed at his job ?

How could my group of 7 people kill sephirot 2 min faster than a 4 dps group? And we are in the same gear, I'm waiting for you to explain.

Better knowledge of the fight, better coordination with people you're used to raid with, jobs not optimized for the raid, and yes, gap in player skill.
But, among all that, I should also say...why does it matter ? Didn't they kill it too ?

[Launched]

Since you're a healer, let me ask you this. You're in a 8-man party. The fights goes with no death, but, in the end, you realize the other healer healed for a noticeable amount below you. Would you say that he failed at his job ?

Most content only needs 1 healer 90% of the time. If he was DPSing while I was healing, I'd be fine with that. If he was standing around doing nothing, I'd say he wasn't doing his job so I'd start DPSing myself to try and make him do some work.