I was sick of tomes in 2.0 now I loathe them in 3.0

[Elky]

Question for some of you. What is it do for fun in 14 besides being with friends?

Glamour, I'm serious.

[Atoli]

I dislike that you do not obtain gear as loot from a mob, but instead are given a currency and purchase it in a very predictable manner

That's actually exactly what's nice about it. Yes, it might make it feel more like a checklist (I have a list of which gear to buy, how many tomes to save and which alex NM tokens I need for 10 weeks in advance minimum), but it also brings with it the very nice comfort of ACTUALLY GETTING SOMETHING for the effort you put in. Seeing as you started playing in April last year, you weren't around when the forums were full of complaints by people who were RAGING because they never got any gear they needed just because RNG liked to f*ck with them. Personally, I'm also one of those people who have just the worst luck. I LIKE knowing that if I run content, at the end of the week, I get something for my effort.

I dislike that lore is distributed unevenly based on time and effort - i.e. you get 30 lore for beating A5S, but 75 lore for expert roulette.
I dislike that the highest reward to time/effort ratio is Expert Roulette, which is fast and incredibly easy, with only 2 roulette options on a daily basis.

I don't disagree with that. The distribution seems somewhat random and not fairly tied to the time and effort put in. On the other hand, you also get Savage Gear/Tokens for clearing savage, so that might be the reason why you get less tomestones for it (well, and the fact that you actually don't get 75 for running an expert dungeon, it's just a once-a-day kind of thing).
But yes, I can totally get behind adjustments to the distribution of tomes as long as they are still fairly accecible for non-raiding players^^

I dislike that there are not really any other options for gearing. If you want Savage, you need to be getting tome gear (or pentameld crafting). So your options are spending loads of gil, crafting or lore gear. I'd like ti if there were more battle oriented options (such as drops in dungeons that are not 35 ilvl's below what the currency from the same dungeon buys you)

A5S and A6S are easily doable in 220 gear which can be both crafted and obtained from Alex NM. Yes, as you get higher the better gear you need, but you'll spend time learning the fights anyway, so even with a limit on tome gear, you'll obtain some over the course of the weeks in which you learn the savage fights.

"a bit of unpleasant stuff" - Always something you want people saying about your entertainment product.

Pretty much nobody likes to grind for exp, yet many RPGs that have you grind for exp are deeply beloved, like, for example, many of the old-school FF games. Or think P*kemon. Is it fun to fight the same wild ones over and over again to level up your monster of choice? Most people would consider it tedious. They still enjoy the games at whole though, because of other aspects that are locked behind doing something somewhat unpleasant first. Even in a game you can't have everything be happy instant gratification. It's also unpleasant to die again and again to a hard boss, but that makes it that much better when you actually do beat him.

I have stopped capping entirely, and I log in just to raid 5 hours per week. Once we have our other healer back from vacation, or sub healer is taking my spot and I am unsubbing. Definitely something I am sure Square wants.

Well, that's your desicion then. SE gave us lots of other things to do besides raiding (as much as POSSIBLE, that is; you can't expect them to churn out 20 new dungeons each week, it's simply not possible), and if you refuse to do any of them there really is nothing SE can do about it.
In the end, you should be doing content for fun, because you enjoy it, not simply for the reward. That means not just farming ex roulette all the time but doing other roulettes as well that might give you less of a perfect time/tome output efficiency but break up your routine. It means doing beasttribe dailies, or even things that are completely unrelated to your tome gain, like helping newbies through their first dungeon experience, run content of which you enjoy the mechanics or just random ones to gather pretty glamours and songs, farming ex primals to either get mounts/weapons yourself or help friends/guildies with it, go and gather/craft something if you don't feel like fighting, or level up a low lvl class, and so on.
There is a giant list of things you can do in this game, and you choose to not do anything but alex savage and ex roulette.
There is really nothing an abolishment of tomes (or the cap on them) would change, other than it would not just STILL force you to run the same content over and over again for the best gear (say tome gear dropped from ex dungeons instead), it just would make you hate it even more because you'd never be getting the gear you want either.

People with that argument are obnoxious. I enjoy getting stronger in game, I do not enjoy doing the same content repeatedly. Its that simple. And people complain about it because its getting boring.

Like I said before, there is a limit on how much new content they can give us each patch. It's not like Yoshi just needs to snap his fingers and 5 new dungeons/raids/trials/etc. are conjured out of thin air.
These things take a lot of time to build, and complaining about having to make do with only 2 new ex dungeons per patch is not gonna change anything because you can't just will additional ones into existence.
They give us other options too, but of course they also are existing content, because, again, you can't just will new content into existence. And even in the patches that DO give us new other options, they get abandoned right away if they don't ALSO have the best time/tome ratio ever.

I think she means there should be some sort of benefit of capping added that isn't centered around vertical progression. I'd guess things like crafting mats, crafting gear, treasure maps, consumables (i.e. food), mounts, minions and so on, that all could be purchased with Lore.

that would be awesome and a great way to make tomes relevant even to those who do not raid

[Kaurie]

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Appreciate the response. I'd like to start off by mentioning that naturally things I dislike are liked by others. This is only natural. That said...

That's actually exactly what's nice about it. Yes, it might make it feel more like a checklist (I have a list of which gear to buy, how many tomes to save and which alex NM tokens I need for 10 weeks in advance minimum), but it also brings with it the very nice comfort of ACTUALLY GETTING SOMETHING for the effort you put in. Seeing as you started playing in April last year, you weren't around when the forums were full of complaints by people who were RAGING because they never got any gear they needed just because RNG liked to f*ck with them. Personally, I'm also one of those people who have just the worst luck. I LIKE knowing that if I run content, at the end of the week, I get something for my effort.

The issue here is it no longer feels like a game or form of entertainment. You may know that all of your efforts are not wasted, which is great, but you're now doing chores instead of playing a game. Personally, I'd rather waste time having fun, then not waste time doing video-game chores.

I did start before April of last year, well before, but that may be when I first posted on the forums. I started in the ARR PC beta and have played on and off since (with some breaks being much longer than others). I may have not seen those specific rage posts, but I can imagine them. I've played a few various MMO's and have heard complaints on both sides. This is my personal opinion on the matter though.

I don't disagree with that. The distribution seems somewhat random and not fairly tied to the time and effort put in. On the other hand, you also get Savage Gear/Tokens for clearing savage, so that might be the reason why you get less tomestones for it (well, and the fact that you actually don't get 75 for running an expert dungeon, it's just a once-a-day kind of thing).
But yes, I can totally get behind adjustments to the distribution of tomes as long as they are still fairly accecible for non-raiding players^^

I merely used those two as an example, but accross the board the time/effort ratio does not equal the reward payout. This game has a very high payout for casual/easy content, a moderate payout for hard content and a weak payout for content in between. It is.. odd.

A5S and A6S are easily doable in 220 gear which can be both crafted and obtained from Alex NM. Yes, as you get higher the better gear you need, but you'll spend time learning the fights anyway, so even with a limit on tome gear, you'll obtain some over the course of the weeks in which you learn the savage fights.

Ah yes, I did forget to include Midas prototype gear. That said, I do find the loot system for this to be frustrating. I hate that you get tokens for this as well, and would rather just have my items drop - similar to 24-person content (well actually not like that, but it's the closest thing in this game to what I want).

Pretty much nobody likes to grind for exp, yet many RPGs that have you grind for exp are deeply beloved, like, for example, many of the old-school FF games. Or think P*kemon. Is it fun to fight the same wild ones over and over again to level up your monster of choice? Most people would consider it tedious. They still enjoy the games at whole though, because of other aspects that are locked behind doing something somewhat unpleasant first. Even in a game you can't have everything be happy instant gratification. It's also unpleasant to die again and again to a hard boss, but that makes it that much better when you actually do beat him.

Personally, I love exping. This depends on the jobs though. Like in WoW, I'll have plenty of alts because the leveling process is fun and there are lots of great specs to enjoy. I like it much less in FFXIV as once you level one job, you can no longer quest to level outside of very repeatable leve quests, and that I really dislike non-Arcanist jobs in FFXIV. In Wildstar, I loved leveling my first character, but disliked all the classes that I couldn't do it again (well I did it 1.5x more, but ya).
That said I agree with your last sentence. Having some sort of work involved isn't necessarily great on it's own, but it increases the sense of satisfaction later. Capping Lore does not provide this sense of satisfaction. Overcoming a very hard challenge, i.e. wiping on Seph EX before you get the clear is a great example. Wiping itself is frustrating, but when you reach the end there is that "YESSS!" moment.

Well, that's your desicion then. SE gave us lots of other things to do besides raiding (as much as POSSIBLE, that is; you can't expect them to churn out 20 new dungeons each week, it's simply not possible), and if you refuse to do any of them there really is nothing SE can do about it.
In the end, you should be doing content for fun, because you enjoy it, not simply for the reward. That means not just farming ex roulette all the time but doing other roulettes as well that might give you less of a perfect time/tome output efficiency but break up your routine. It means doing beasttribe dailies, or even things that are completely unrelated to your tome gain, like helping newbies through their first dungeon experience, run content of which you enjoy the mechanics or just random ones to gather pretty glamours and songs, farming ex primals to either get mounts/weapons yourself or help friends/guildies with it, go and gather/craft something if you don't feel like fighting, or level up a low lvl class, and so on.
There is a giant list of things you can do in this game, and you choose to not do anything but alex savage and ex roulette.
There is really nothing an abolishment of tomes (or the cap on them) would change, other than it would not just STILL force you to run the same content over and over again for the best gear (say tome gear dropped from ex dungeons instead), it just would make you hate it even more because you'd never be getting the gear you want either.

Obviously it is my decision =P SE has given us lots of really horrible content, which is what I am getting at. I really dislike FFXIV's take on crafting, gathering, dungeons, Levequests, fates, beast tribes, diadem, chocobo racing, triple triad, gold saucer, housing and so on.

Originally, I did enjoy raiding and dungeons a lot more. I really enjoyed the combat of FFXIV and I appreciaetd that it kept the trinity. I appreciated the graphics and art style. However, when I started things were very different. There were classes that turned into jobs and the way it was presented made it seem like all classes would get multiple jobs, and this would be the spec system the game provides. Time passed and they dropped classes all together. Other things like this happened. Every patch came along and the game went from 80% what I want to 75, to 70, to 65, to 50 and so on. Each patch moves it down the opposite way of what I want in a game.

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I want to make a contrast to WoW, which has a gearing system that I greatly prefer. I am playing catch up on it, after only hitting 100 recently and trying to be geared for my new raid team there. "Roulette's" do not provide a token to buy gear, but they provide currency used to upgrade your gear. Each weekly raid run or daily dungeon run (1 dungeon roulette, like ~12 weekly raid ones) give you ~150-200 Valor. Then you use 250 valor to raise nearly any item by 5 ilvl's a max of two times. You can raise a 650 item to 660 or a 695 to 705 etc. Then dungeons drop 630 gear, which is now pretty outdated, but was once a great way to gear yourself. Mythic dungeons drop 685 and have a chance to 'warforge' for a higher ilvl of over 700 I believe. Drops in the open-world end-game daily zone drop baleful tokens which can be interacted with to create a gear item for your specialization. These are usually 650 with a chance to be higher up to 695. You can then use currency purchased from the open world daily zone (among other ways to obtain that currency) to boost any of those items to 695. Raids have 4 difficulties, LFR (similar to World of Darkness level difficulty I'd say), Normal, Heroic, Mythic. I've only done normal, but it is pretty tough (easier than our savage, harder than our normal). Each of these drop items with increased ilvl (where LFR = 680ish and Normal = 695ish etc). Anyway, this loot system appeals to me much more.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Question for some of you. What is it do for fun in 14 besides being with friends?

Play the game. Sometimes raid, sometimes quests, sometimes just wandering around doing FATEs or workingon the relic grind. Some ccrafting, some gathering, basically whatever I feel like doing that particular day. Course, I also don't tend to concern myself with efficiency and just do whatever I think sounds enjoyable.

[Eul]

Question for some of you. What is it do for fun in 14 besides being with friends?

PKing at Seal Rock and spamming it for ADS mount.

[MomomiMomi]

Due to the Battleborn launch, I'm currently at 30/450 and I still have plenty of time to cap without much effort for the week. Also, after taking a look at your character, what do you need lore gear for? You only have one level 60 and have zero Midas normal gear and the lore gear you do have is unmelded. A quick glance suggests that you spend most of your time doing PvP or crafting with little to no PvE.

I had previously mentioned in this thread that I do not care about capping. Just because I don't care about it right now does not mean that that will be the case in the future, so it does not change my opinion on the cap system.

I'm busy until at least Sunday. No, I don't care about capping right now, but if I did, that gives me 1-2 days to cap, which leads me to doing the most efficient way to cap, whether I enjoy it or not. A rollover system would fix this and it would keep the cap preventing people from getting too far ahead. I think rollover is a good compromise between the current system and no cap.

[Alexftw]

Well as for savage giving lores... Currently clearing it gives you 120 lores per week(30 per floor). I wouldn't say that's bad as it equals to expert+60roullete together(meaning 1 day saved).

As such it seems perfectly fine since the rewards are already good enough even if it were to give no lores(plus if you were to increase the amt of lores per floor I can already see some people logging clearing savage and logging out right away).

[Kurogaea]

PKing at Seal Rock and spamming it for ADS mount.

I literally quit Seize after getting it and ride it all the time to mark my triumph over that bs lol. I'd give you my massive loss rate but I don't have my account active atm but I just wasn't happy with where they were going with that mode.

Play the game. Sometimes raid, sometimes quests, sometimes just wandering around doing FATEs or workingon the relic grind. Some ccrafting, some gathering, basically whatever I feel like doing that particular day. Course, I also don't tend to concern myself with efficiency and just do whatever I think sounds enjoyable.

I said things that are fun in 14. I know fun is really subjective but you just said the equivalent of real life manual labor is fun, crafting and gathering. Unless you mean making gil is fun, in which that could be fun watching the numbers rack up up so you can get something cosmetic. Is that what you meant?

The relic quests I'd really like to know which part is fun. The grind in which you run alexander 300 times (I dunno) or doing dungeons loads of times for tomes to turn in for 1/80 items every 600 tomes or so? Is it the hype to get that ultimate weapon that would be most likely useless by the time the next big patch comes out? Or is it the cutscenes? I prefer the cutscenes, but that was last relic like in 2.0 and near the end of the quest and excitement it all seemed buried under my annoyance.......My character's face when that guy mentioned getting more atma was priceless though. Just sayin.

What do you raid as of now for fun and what parts in particular?

Srry for the deep questions. I'm just very curious to see what I'm not seeing here.

Glamour, I'm serious.

Sadly that's the only thing aside from social gatherings that entertain me. Should've seen me trying to make a Judy Hopps outfit.

[Yasuhiro]

Man, some of the stuff in this thread reminds me of this gem I see passed around a lot on the internet in regards to what there is to do in XIV

They added Z co-ordinates too so there's also that to do,

[Warlyx]

Well as for savage giving lores... Currently clearing it gives you 120 lores per week(30 per floor). I wouldn't say that's bad as it equals to expert+60roullete together(meaning 1 day saved).

i disagree , savage MUST give wayyy more lore like 120 each so 4 turns = cap and its only make sense...is like putting the 74 lore reward on High lvl DR or Low lvl ....roulettes that dont provide anything but BOREDOM....once u are past that cap in ilvl/skill....