Bard in the party... thoughts?

[Kelevra]

And then throw out casters? Giving BRD a piercing debuff doesn't even make sense because it's not going to level them to where MCH is. Again, Yoshi's stance on BRD/MCH is that they both sahre the same role of "support" dps. MCH is not a full dps job as much something as the melee/casters are.

The response wasn't to make it seem like casters would be less important or not needed as much. All I was trying to say is maybe people wouldn't always have to default to the common dps composition of Melee, Melee, Ranged, Caster all the time if Brd had access to the piercing debuff. Maybe. You say giving Brd a piercing debuff doesn't make sense and won't help them.....before those Mch changes, I didn't think an additional 5% to Hypercharge and the Gauss Round change would help them as much either.

I've given my suggestions earlier, but I don't think Brd needs all the buffs for improvement (I want a few improvements, just not something 'overkill' like stated earlier). Just one thing (or two) to help it out a bit. If not the piercing debuff then, adjust Foe's. If not that, then something else.

[Tsilyi]

@RiceisNice
Are you drunk? I think I probably mentionned the DPS gap like once or maybe twice if you count the moment I have bring concrete proof of that DPS gap, after that we just discussed about it without really pointing it.

It may be true that the kit of machinist could be considered better for the encounters in midas savage currently but outside of hardcore endgame progression, and i'm talking top world, it hardly matters. Also, you would really be surprised to know how many times you specifically compared bard and machinist damage in this thread alone, not including the times where you simply didn't directly say the word "damage" or "dps." For the top world players often the difference isn't even 200%, and that includes the same person playing one class or the other, which is imo a pretty good way to compare.

[RiceisNice]

The response wasn't to make it seem like casters would be less important or not needed as much. All I was trying to say is maybe people wouldn't always have to default to the common dps composition of Melee, Melee, Ranged, Caster all the time if Brd had access to the piercing debuff. Maybe. You say giving Brd a piercing debuff doesn't make sense and won't help them.....before those Mch changes, I didn't think an additional 5% to Hypercharge and the Gauss Round change wouldn't help them as much either.

Giving brd a piercing debuff doesn't make any sense in their placement in a party composition if they're competing with MCH. It doesn't make sense from a damage perspective either because at that point, they'd probably balance bard dps around having the debuff (it doesn't make contextual sense by saying DRG does more damage because of the piercing debuff, because that's part of their kit and would be part of their inherent, personal damage). Nearly every example in this discussion has been directed to a MCH that has a DRG in their party for piercing debuff, giving that to BRD wouldn't change a thing in this regard because as of now, any BRD that wants to maximize their dps would have a DRG anyway for the piercing debuff.

But if you want toe encourage a BRD/MCH composition, then you're effectively throwing casters out of the equation unless you're looking at a triple ranged dps group, because MCH directly benefits BRD through hypercharge as well.

[Kelevra]

snip.

Again, if not a piercing debuff (which would allow the Bard to hit harder w/o a Drg while still benefiting casters and healers that want to dps with Foes)...then something else. Several things they can improve or adjust on Brd to help the job.

[Slyqc]

@RiceisNice
I really don't see why you're so upront about not balancing BRD, I mean you are right by saying MCH was falling behind with Gordias just as much as BRD is falling behind with Midan now.
But if I remember correctly, MCH did got balanced, now you're upfront refusing the opposite? Why?

Also I really don't get what more proof you need, everything is shown on FFLogs, you say this is patched damage, well you look at top 2 from both class and both got Ninja, DRG and AST in their team comp, so yeah... both are patched.
The only fact that there's twice more MCH that made it through A6S proof how easier it is to clear that place with a MCH instead of a BRD and as you said so yourself there is more BRD than there are MCH.

[ashwich]

give bard piercing, less incentive to bring DRG, more to bring casters
don't give bard piercing, 1 spot for caster in the current meta, more incentive to bring DRG

Honestly what's the difference. Not much if you ask me, just please 1 crowd over another. Hypercharge vs Foe's isn't really all that big a deal to be honest. the 200 dps difference is. Sure as somebody said earlier, a raid who would kick the bard to bring a mch for 200 dps wouldnt' likely be a pleasant raid group to be in. But as a bard, knowing your supposedly equiv in the meta is actually superior because they simply do more dmg kinda sucks.

I started leveling mch on my own, because of that. I'm sure so did many people on fflogs

[Slyqc]

@ashwich

I'm pretty sure the reason why Bards are beeing ignored in Midas is for A6S second boss mainly, not really for the little DPS difference, even though that 200 DPS CAN do the difference between getting the enrage or not, still shouldn't be that much of a problems if mechanics are executed correctly and no one dies.
Of course using a Bard can still make it through (My previous static and I made it), but why would you complicate your life so much if you can make everyones job a lot more easy?
The first 4 Alphas are pretty easy to destroy and shouldn't be a problem, the last 6 are a lot more complicated, by adding a 40% heavy on 1 orb and a 2 seconds stun, you make everyones life a LOT less complicated.

[RiceisNice]

@RiceisNice
I really don't see why you're so upront about not balancing BRD, I mean you are right by saying MCH was falling behind with Gordias just as much as BRD is falling behind with Midan now.
But if I remember correctly, MCH did got balanced, now you're upfront refusing the opposite? Why?

Because honestly speaking, BRD and MCH are both close together enough that they can be competitive to each other. The factor is the fights that design to favor one or another (which has been the case since 2.x, and has nothing to do with job balance honestly, espesically when the two are interchangable). You can look at the logs right now and see that the top BRD/MCH are actually by the same player, and the instances where the MCH does more has numerous factors from clear times to buffs that are in the MCH's favor (specifically the absence of an AST)

Also I really don't get what more proof you need, everything is shown on FFLogs, you say this is patched damage, well you look at top 2 from both class and both got Ninja, DRG and AST in their team comp, so yeah... both are patched.

What? Did you even look at the fights? I'll grab an example right now with A5s. The top MCH is at 1,740 with a 4:30 clear time, the top BRD (who happens to be the same player who is the top MCH) is at 1,630 with a clear time of 5 minutes...but the latter doesn't have an astro. The second highest BRD would be around 1,580-1,600, also doesn't have an astro, and the fight took 6 minutes which is going to lower the overall measurement of dps as the fight drags on. The trend continues on and on, and at that point you're comparing the dps of a BRD who probably has it as their clear attempt versus a MCH who has it on farm. You keep bringing up the 200 dps difference, but don't see why it's there, but instead assuming that MCH is straight up better than BRD from a dps standpoint.

@ashwich

The first 4 Alphas are pretty easy to destroy and shouldn't be a problem, the last 6 are a lot more complicated, by adding a 40% heavy on 1 orb and a 2 seconds stun, you make everyones life a LOT less complicated.

Your summoner has miasma, miasma II, while blackmage has blizzard and lethargy. Even if you were to take in a BRD, your group still has means of putting out heavy, which isn't on cooldown. The balls also spawn in intervals from each other, you're not delaing with 6 at the same time, and melee stuns are more than enough. I won't disagree it helps, but that's going into fight mechanics that favor MCH (which can round about to having fight mechanics which favor having a BRD, like say having cleanse debuffs). The solution is not to homogenize the two jobs just for something like this, because something like having a stun of 2 seconds when your party is capable of doing at least 4 stuns of equal/longer just by the offtank and melee dps by itself isn't going to be the huge factor of clearing brawler. Not to mention BRD has more higher potency oGCDs at their hand that makes it easier/more ideal to shoot down adds, as well as the cooldowns that also helps in that regard (because wildfire is entirely useless for something like this)

[Slyqc]

@RiceisNice

Stop looking at A5S please, A5S is easy and doesn't necessarily favors any class, look at the next 3 floors.
Just like said previously more bards cleared A5S... dropping to so low, MCH have twice more clears in the next 3 floors.
Also, don't just look at top 1 but at top 10.

[Greywolfamakir]

My static had BRD (She is the RL fo the static and she had been playing BRD since ARR Release), but when 3.2 patch notes was released i suggested her to change to MCH and I knew nothing about Midas, but with the changes to hypercharge it was pretty easy to see that MCH was going to become very OP with 2 meles comp. It's not about A6S second boss.

I totally agree with Riceis, BRD and MCH are pretty close, but MCH is great with 2 meles comp and Midas's encounters are pretty good for MCH. No one can say "MCH is better than BRD"...that is not rigth.