Bard in the party... thoughts?

[Slyqc]

@RiceisNice

Are you drunk? I think I probably mentionned the DPS gap like once or maybe twice if you count the moment I have bring concrete proof of that DPS gap, after that we just discussed about it without really pointing it.
I really don't want to repeat myself (Again) but I'll make an exception for you.

The problem lies in the kit of both classes, they are almost clone with only few difference but these difference are gigantic when it comes on deciding a class for raid. Currently the perfect exemple is the Heavy + Stun the MCH can bring on the table while BRD don't have anything.
But the fact that they are almost clone classes bring the real problem when you look at the DPS Gap, since MCH is holding it's place near BLM and SMN, is MCH a support DPS or a High DPS class.
You can't have both, currently MCH got both, THIS is where the problem is!

[RiceisNice]

@RiceisNice

Are you drunk? I think I probably mentionned the DPS gap like once or maybe twice if you count the moment I have bring concrete proof of that DPS gap, after that we just discussed about it without really pointing it.

...
But the fact that they are almost clone classes bring the real problem when you look at the DPS Gap, since MCH is holding it's place near BLM and SMN, is MCH a support DPS or a High DPS class.
You can't have both, currently MCH got both, THIS is where the problem is!

You're still bringing it up in your problem example, nor is it even entirely validated like I've been saying because you keep trying to bring it up as a comparison to what they can bring to the table. There's a discrepancy because you're looking at comparisons that's consistently skewed toward MCH in either clear times, buffs or both. An average MCH certainly is not pulling the numbers that an average melee/caster would be. Your point rests entirely on the fact that MCH can do both high dps comparable to a melee/caster (which isn't completely true) and support, while bard is delegated to the latter. It always comes back to your perspective of how MCH brings more to the party than a BRD does (including damage), at least that's what I'm getting.

As far as fights are concerned, that will always be the case and it's been the other way around since 3.0-3.1; during at which time their personal dps and party dps was still lower than that of a BRD. But that still wasn't a good excuse for them to exclude MCH out of groups (much like how it's not a good excuse now to exclude BRD). This has always been the case for the melees and casters, but at this point they've also dealed with it. It's entirely new to BRD because they have been the uncontested job role for the entity of 2.x, and arguably for 3.0-3.1 since they were superior to MCH for min/maxing under normal circumstances (esp when the name of the game was dps checks(

[Tsilyi]

@RiceisNice
Are you drunk? I think I probably mentionned the DPS gap like once or maybe twice if you count the moment I have bring concrete proof of that DPS gap, after that we just discussed about it without really pointing it.

It may be true that the kit of machinist could be considered better for the encounters in midas savage currently but outside of hardcore endgame progression, and i'm talking top world, it hardly matters. Also, you would really be surprised to know how many times you specifically compared bard and machinist damage in this thread alone, not including the times where you simply didn't directly say the word "damage" or "dps." For the top world players often the difference isn't even 200%, and that includes the same person playing one class or the other, which is imo a pretty good way to compare.

[Slyqc]

@RiceisNice
I really don't see why you're so upront about not balancing BRD, I mean you are right by saying MCH was falling behind with Gordias just as much as BRD is falling behind with Midan now.
But if I remember correctly, MCH did got balanced, now you're upfront refusing the opposite? Why?

Also I really don't get what more proof you need, everything is shown on FFLogs, you say this is patched damage, well you look at top 2 from both class and both got Ninja, DRG and AST in their team comp, so yeah... both are patched.
The only fact that there's twice more MCH that made it through A6S proof how easier it is to clear that place with a MCH instead of a BRD and as you said so yourself there is more BRD than there are MCH.

[RiceisNice]

@RiceisNice
I really don't see why you're so upront about not balancing BRD, I mean you are right by saying MCH was falling behind with Gordias just as much as BRD is falling behind with Midan now.
But if I remember correctly, MCH did got balanced, now you're upfront refusing the opposite? Why?

Because honestly speaking, BRD and MCH are both close together enough that they can be competitive to each other. The factor is the fights that design to favor one or another (which has been the case since 2.x, and has nothing to do with job balance honestly, espesically when the two are interchangable). You can look at the logs right now and see that the top BRD/MCH are actually by the same player, and the instances where the MCH does more has numerous factors from clear times to buffs that are in the MCH's favor (specifically the absence of an AST)

Also I really don't get what more proof you need, everything is shown on FFLogs, you say this is patched damage, well you look at top 2 from both class and both got Ninja, DRG and AST in their team comp, so yeah... both are patched.

What? Did you even look at the fights? I'll grab an example right now with A5s. The top MCH is at 1,740 with a 4:30 clear time, the top BRD (who happens to be the same player who is the top MCH) is at 1,630 with a clear time of 5 minutes...but the latter doesn't have an astro. The second highest BRD would be around 1,580-1,600, also doesn't have an astro, and the fight took 6 minutes which is going to lower the overall measurement of dps as the fight drags on. The trend continues on and on, and at that point you're comparing the dps of a BRD who probably has it as their clear attempt versus a MCH who has it on farm. You keep bringing up the 200 dps difference, but don't see why it's there, but instead assuming that MCH is straight up better than BRD from a dps standpoint.

@ashwich

The first 4 Alphas are pretty easy to destroy and shouldn't be a problem, the last 6 are a lot more complicated, by adding a 40% heavy on 1 orb and a 2 seconds stun, you make everyones life a LOT less complicated.

Your summoner has miasma, miasma II, while blackmage has blizzard and lethargy. Even if you were to take in a BRD, your group still has means of putting out heavy, which isn't on cooldown. The balls also spawn in intervals from each other, you're not delaing with 6 at the same time, and melee stuns are more than enough. I won't disagree it helps, but that's going into fight mechanics that favor MCH (which can round about to having fight mechanics which favor having a BRD, like say having cleanse debuffs). The solution is not to homogenize the two jobs just for something like this, because something like having a stun of 2 seconds when your party is capable of doing at least 4 stuns of equal/longer just by the offtank and melee dps by itself isn't going to be the huge factor of clearing brawler. Not to mention BRD has more higher potency oGCDs at their hand that makes it easier/more ideal to shoot down adds, as well as the cooldowns that also helps in that regard (because wildfire is entirely useless for something like this)

[Slyqc]

@RiceisNice

Stop looking at A5S please, A5S is easy and doesn't necessarily favors any class, look at the next 3 floors.
Just like said previously more bards cleared A5S... dropping to so low, MCH have twice more clears in the next 3 floors.
Also, don't just look at top 1 but at top 10.

[ashwich]

give bard piercing, less incentive to bring DRG, more to bring casters
don't give bard piercing, 1 spot for caster in the current meta, more incentive to bring DRG

Honestly what's the difference. Not much if you ask me, just please 1 crowd over another. Hypercharge vs Foe's isn't really all that big a deal to be honest. the 200 dps difference is. Sure as somebody said earlier, a raid who would kick the bard to bring a mch for 200 dps wouldnt' likely be a pleasant raid group to be in. But as a bard, knowing your supposedly equiv in the meta is actually superior because they simply do more dmg kinda sucks.

I started leveling mch on my own, because of that. I'm sure so did many people on fflogs

[Slyqc]

@ashwich

I'm pretty sure the reason why Bards are beeing ignored in Midas is for A6S second boss mainly, not really for the little DPS difference, even though that 200 DPS CAN do the difference between getting the enrage or not, still shouldn't be that much of a problems if mechanics are executed correctly and no one dies.
Of course using a Bard can still make it through (My previous static and I made it), but why would you complicate your life so much if you can make everyones job a lot more easy?
The first 4 Alphas are pretty easy to destroy and shouldn't be a problem, the last 6 are a lot more complicated, by adding a 40% heavy on 1 orb and a 2 seconds stun, you make everyones life a LOT less complicated.

[Greywolfamakir]

My static had BRD (She is the RL fo the static and she had been playing BRD since ARR Release), but when 3.2 patch notes was released i suggested her to change to MCH and I knew nothing about Midas, but with the changes to hypercharge it was pretty easy to see that MCH was going to become very OP with 2 meles comp. It's not about A6S second boss.

I totally agree with Riceis, BRD and MCH are pretty close, but MCH is great with 2 meles comp and Midas's encounters are pretty good for MCH. No one can say "MCH is better than BRD"...that is not rigth.

[RiceisNice]

@RiceisNice

Stop looking at A5S please, A5S is easy and doesn't necessarily favors any class, look at the next 3 floors.
Just like said previously more bards cleared A5S... dropping to so low, MCH have twice more clears in the next 3 floors.
Also, don't just look at top 1 but at top 10.

Even if you look at top 10 or the other floors, the same context still applies. The only thing I can agree and that is shown with fflogs is that there are less BRDs that have cleared A7s than there are MCH, but that by itself doesn't mean a whole lot in the job's actual performance.

I totally agree with Riceis, BRD and MCH are pretty close, but MCH is great with 2 meles comp and Midas's encounters are pretty good for MCH. No one can say "MCH is better than BRD"...that is not rigth.

The wild factor for foe's effectiveness has always been the healers and how much damage they can contribute, doubly so with the higher accuracy requirements and RoD. When hypercharge was at 5%, it didn't really hold much of a candle to foe even if it did technically affect "more" of the party, because both the uptime and potency was lower than what foe to bring, and factoring in healer dps would completely dwarf it at that point (esp in a raid tier where dps check was king). On the other hand, the "wild factor" for hypercharge is tank dps, and this is also when they adjusted str/vitality with tanks that their overall effective damage is a bit lower than what it was before; it's not necessarily clear cut just by looking at the values of the debuffs.

Fights favoring one class or another has always been a thing, and that's exactly why direct balance changes shouldn't be made unless it's huge and not exclusive to the encounter in mind. I'd expect (or at least hope) that MCHs wouldn't cry foul over a mechanic that requires cleansing a debuff or spot healing is required, in which case paeon/second wind would be incredibly helpful. I digress though, this is mostly a meta thing with group compositions, but in the end it doesn't make or break anything significantly unless you're that concerned with world firsts.