Feedback: "Invincibility"

[Renault]

Snip

Did some testing. You can make it from Spawn to the point where your bridge meets the middle arena with 3~4 seconds left, and hit the exact middle with 1~2 seconds left.

Again, this might not seem like much to some, but understand that 1-4 seconds spent in the middle with invincibility can very well turn the tides, and in my opinion this is just another gimmick I feel needs to be left out. I'll give some examples:

Ex 1: Healer1 dies, so Team2 decides to focus down Dps1 while Healer1 is dead. Respawns are instant more or less, so the healer is running back out as soon as they're up. Team2 tries to CC Healer1 as he arrives back at the middle, but they cannot because he still has a few seconds left of invincibility. Therefore, Healer1 is able to heal Dps1 uncontested, keeping him alive and denying Team2 an otherwise deserved kill.

Ex 2: Dps1 dies. Dps1 sprints to middle, gap closes to Healer2, and limit breaks. Dps1 cannot be interrupted by Team2 because he is still invincible for a second, which is literally enough time to limit break. Healer2 dies to LB and Dps1 gets a free kill because of invincibility.

I have seen example 1 happen in 80% of my matches (I am usually the one trying to CC the returning healer), and example 2 I have seen a small handful of times. There are other scenarios where this gimmick is, in my opinion, giving an unfair advantage to the losing team, but I feel these two examples get the point across clearly.

Again, I feel the need to reiterate: This is happening in the middle of the arena, not in the spawn areas. Another decent alternative would be to reduce the duration of the buff to 5 seconds, down from 10.

[RiceisNice]

Ex 1: Healer1 dies, so Team2 decides to focus down Dps1 while Healer1 is dead. Respawns are instant more or less, so the healer is running back out as soon as they're up. Team2 tries to CC Healer1 as he arrives back at the middle, but they cannot because he still has a few seconds left of invincibility. Therefore, Healer1 is able to heal Dps1 uncontested, keeping him alive and denying Team2 an otherwise deserved kill.

Honestly, if the other team is down a healer, another dps should dropping in that short amount of time unless your team is uncoordinated. Granted this is coming from my perspective as a dps so this is the case for me...when my tank and dps partner are on speed with the call outs anyway. If dps1 is alive for that long without a healer, I wouldn't say its deserved at that point.

As a side thought, there are also other things that make this more apparent than it needs to be, the removal of walls that obstruct the center of the arena and the removal of healing reduction debuff. The amount of power a GCD cast (whether it be heals, CC or blm dps) has in relation to how easy it is to get off is still a bit still high to leave it the way it is imo.

[Renault]

SHOULD

I just quoted a key word here. You're absolutely right, you SHOULD be able to sweep up another kill. However...Respawns are nearly instant, and many classes have self heals. Also, you probably used your burst and much of your CC to kill the healer, and often those enemy DPS will have no issue simply running back towards their bridge to get those sweet, invincible heals.

As the game is currently, it is my belief that it is easier to run back to spawn and live than it is to chase down an enemy to secure a kill. I think a better balance would be:

Enemy makes it back over their side of the bridge, are now in range of spawning healer, can be healed and live.

NOT

Enemy makes it to "their half" of the middle arena, sprinting healer makes it back in time to heal them and make them live.

[RiceisNice]

I just quoted a key word here. You're absolutely right, you SHOULD be able to sweep up another kill. However...Respawns are nearly instant, and many classes have self heals. Also, you probably used your burst and much of your CC to kill the healer, and often those enemy DPS will have no issue simply running back towards their bridge to get those sweet, invincible heals.

When you quote a keyword, you should also point out the context behind it, too. The deaths should following suit if your damage is on track on focusing and following up. We're not talking about the healers instantly respawning (if respawn was instant, then you wouldn't be able to raise anyone) and being able to jump back into action, either; There's a 3 second timer for the actual return, followed by the raise animation, and then finally they can move. That's roughly 5 seconds of no outgoing healing.

You don't necessarily need burst damage or CC to kill people who aren't receiving any heals (nor can it be the case for the most part, because beyond oGCD bursts, they still have cooldowns active). Beyond recuperation, only BRD out of the ranged jobs actually have a form of self heal, and I don't believe DoMs have access to recuperate at all. I stick by my statement; if you can't kill a dps in that amount of time frame where they have no healer, it's probably not a "deserved" kill to begin with.

As the game is currently, it is my belief that it is easier to run back to spawn and live than it is to chase down an enemy to secure a kill. I think a better balance would be:

IMO, this should be the case. You've already lost momentum and pacing when you lose a healer, and at that point your focus should be minimizing loss. If the latter was more of the case, then we'd more likely see games being decided on the first death because it's that much harder to come back from it.

[Renault]

Snip

I really think you're missing the point here. The point is not that the healer respawns, comes back, and heals. That's fine. The point/problem is that you cannot stop that healer from doing it. They are invincible.

[RiceisNice]

I really think you're missing the point here. The point is not that the healer respawns, comes back, and heals. That's fine. The point/problem is that you cannot stop that healer from doing it. They are invincible.

The two are somewhat related. If you can include the quote you're reference, it'd help. Whenever you snip, I don't know what context you're referring to

I'm saying that from my viewpoint as a dps, the healers running back in to heal while having the respawn invincibility isn't too big of a problem because a healer death usually means another dps (generally the ranged one) is going to die in the span that it takes for a healer to respawn and get within the range of doing something (which generally includes having 1-3 seconds of invincibility). Unless it's concerning the tank, a healer coming back in with 1-3 of invincbility isn't long enough to be influential, because at that point, you've either regrouped (though this is usually because the other team didn't capitalize on the healer's death) or died.

It's at the point that I don't feel it's a good change to remove/lower the invincibility duration, which would in turn have lower anti-spawn camping deterrance. I've never had a game turn around or go south because of it, not unless my team was uncoordinated on a follow up. If we're talking about the concept (which might be what you're getting) that a healer can run into a fight and be invincbility, then I can agree that it's kind of a silly concept, but it still stems from their anti-camp measures; you can't influence one without the other.

For example, if we were to remove invulnerability on cast, it'd wreck scholars more than any other healers because they need to get their fairy up and aetherflow. If you lower the duration, you lower the effectiveness of fighting back when they are truly spawn camping you, and the layout of the team's base doesn't help in this regard. In a perfect world, where SE could design anything and not have bugs scome up as a result (let alone do this at all, since they have a nasty track record of doing small, bandage fixes that sometimes don't even address the problem), they'd remove the invulnerability after stepping onto the bridge.

[Renault]

Snip

I snip because you insist on responding with multiple paragraphs every time you post. Also, you're arguing against a point I agreed is not the better of the solutions a few posts ago.

The duration should be reduced so that it falls off before you can reach the middle arena. Bottom line.

[PotatoGirl]

To all of this. I get your points Renault. But honestly how many times does it seriously have an effect on a match?

Lets assume everyone is dead center and stays there when the healer dies. No one moves and no one tries to focus down the range asap. In the time it takes to respawn, animation and actually sprint you say there are 3 seconds of potential invlun in the center. Now, once they start running the first thing they are probably going to do is use an instant cast where possible to get a critical heal the moment they are in range. How many people are actually able to capitalize on that healer at max range while dealing with their own shit currently going on? Honestly, you have to be prepared in advance for that healer to even stop that. Furthermore, the team down a healer should be moving back the second the healer dies anyways, this further limits the chances to even stop that healer from getting a crucial heal off invuln or not.


I really feel like this is a non issue and only in the most extreme cases is actually abused in some way. And this whole topic just screams of hypothetical situations to begin with :l

[Renault]

To all of this. I get your points Renault. But honestly how many times does it seriously have an effect on a match?

Usually once per match, if not multiple times. I play a WHM, and therefore I aim to lock down my opponents with CC. I feel like you're saying it's a non issue because you don't really understand that it can literally decide a win or a loss, a kill or a...not kill.