Low level tanks (pre-tank stance) have a very hard time holding threat after the nerf

[Dzian]

Having that much threat scales enmity meter in such a way that it become hard to read. This means tanks, DPS, and healer could struggle to understand how it works.
DPS classes would also get very little information about their performance early on.

This is where many people go wrong. the enmity meter is not a measure of performance. being number 2 on the threat list does not make you the top dps or any other misfounded belief.

what it does is likely make you the dps that never uses quelling strikes or other enmity reduction abilities until it's too late to be beneficial because if you're number 4 on the list you must be terrible.... or the dps that won't peel off the boss to deal with adds in case he's not number 2 when the adds are dead.

people already misread the enmity meter all the time thinking of it as some kind of performance measure..

[Tsilyi]

Flash > Flash > Flash > Flash > Fast Blade > Flash > Riot Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash > Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Fast Blade > Riot Blade

There is no Savage Blade.

Is this hyperbole? I can't tell via text. I never had to do this much flash before nor after the tank changes even with dps attacking random targets.. Also, are just specifically suggesting this method for mob packs or are you saying for bosses as well (as in, did the savage blade threat buff not eclipse using flash single target at lower levels)?

[ashwich]

Is this hyperbole? I can't tell via text. I never had to do this much flash before nor after the tank changes even with dps attacking random targets.. Also, are just specifically suggesting this method for mob packs or are you saying for bosses as well (as in, did the savage blade threat buff not eclipse using flash single target at lower levels)?

going back on previous posts, I think he's absolutely serious. This is a good work around for trash pulls. I'm not sure about single target boss tbh, it may be on par or better than your standard FB>SB in a 15 sastasha.

But if someone is encouraged to use bizarre methods like this to hold hate, I think it's time for ability order revision.

[Pells]

Is this hyperbole? I can't tell via text. I never had to do this much flash before nor after the tank changes even with dps attacking random targets.. Also, are just specifically suggesting this method for mob packs or are you saying for bosses as well (as in, did the savage blade threat buff not eclipse using flash single target at lower levels)?

At low levels before you have Rage of Halone or Shield Oath, this is the biggest threat generation you can manage as a paladin. So no, it's not hyperbole.

going back on previous posts, I think he's absolutely serious. This is a good work around for trash pulls. I'm not sure about single target boss tbh, it may be on par or better than your standard FB>SB in a 15 sastasha.

But if someone is encouraged to use bizarre methods like this to hold hate, I think it's time for ability order revision.

Neither is it bizarre. It's been this way since 2.0 launched. The reason it's looked down on is because Flash does no damage. That is: it doesn't fit the dps tanking meta. You know, that thing that's only applicable at Savage level raiding with a static. So of course you would follow it at level 15 in a pug dungeon...

[Tsilyi]

At low levels before you have Rage of Halone or Shield Oath, this is the biggest threat generation you can manage as a paladin. So no, it's not hyperbole.

I see... I have not had to resort to that much flash at any time before or after the changes pre-halone/shield oath, but I could understand if you're worried about aoe threat. Surely it's not better single target threat with the buff to savage blade, that was my main question.

[Launched]

I see... I have not had to resort to that much flash at any time before or after the changes pre-halone/shield oath, but I could understand if you're worried about aoe threat. Surely it's not better single target threat with the buff to savage blade, that was my main question.

Flash is 600 potency per GCD. Fast>Savage is 150+(3.5*200)=850, or 425 per GCD.

[ashwich]

while this has been true since 2.0. and a viable solution. As Tsilyi mentioned above, GLA tanks has never needed to rely this heavily on flash in order to tank low level contents before. (I have leveled a GLA without crafted or pre-obtained gear twice pre 3.0, don't ask...)

Unless developers acknowledge this is the model for lower level tanks they intended, I think there is something to be fixed here. For how heavily hate generation is relying on shield oath in the current state of things, we sure are getting them pretty late. All workarounds aside, I think this is an area of improvement.

[winsock]

This is where many people go wrong. the enmity meter is not a measure of performance. being number 2 on the threat list does not make you the top dps or any other misfounded belief.

what it does is likely make you the dps that never uses quelling strikes or other enmity reduction abilities until it's too late to be beneficial because if you're number 4 on the list you must be terrible.... or the dps that won't peel off the boss to deal with adds in case he's not number 2 when the adds are dead.

people already misread the enmity meter all the time thinking of it as some kind of performance measure..

3 things

1) Who has emnity reduction abilities at low level? Anyone willing to admit quelling strikes being that high of a priority on their cc slots?

2) in what low level dungeon do adds/kill order actually matter? Many early boss battles are only extended by switching to adds or performing mechanics

3) While the emnity gauge isnt perfect, where do you suggest ppl get performance data in game? It isnt perfect, but there are also several situations where being #2 indicates that you're dps is the highest.

[ashwich]

3 things

the problem here is that ASSUMING we're talking reasonable situations where hate bar may reflect proportionally to damage. there's still no self-improvement value in the hate bar. it doesn't tell you how you're doing against how you were doing last time you were here, or how you were doing after you changed your rotation around, maybe you did worse, maybe you improved, you don't know.

All it tells you is that you MIGHT have generated more hate than the other DPS, which is pointless.

[winsock]

healer job too easy when at that level? well it's 1 cure from 0 to full with or without tank stance.

There are many pulls already that do not require a single heal. Giving tanks tank stance will only increase the number of fights that do not require any healing, and will reduce the number of heals needed in fights that currently require it.

I can argue that you can't do anything you said nearly as well unless you're talking a level-synced down tank with proper accessories and gear. but I'm talking stepping into the role at 15 for the first time, you would've had nothing but the new tutorial gear (left side only) and MAYBE some under-level accessories, minimum secondary stats. I havn't seen a marauder for awhile, so maybe this is just a GLA problem. with the insanely low weapon dmg scaling for 1hand weapons, savage blade as only enmity generator other than flash. it's rough (especially considering a large portion of DF group consist of level-synced 60, which isn't a bad thing necessarily).

I started a new char on a new for 3.2. I played both GLD and MRD frequently in low level dungeons, while both being level appropriate and in level appropriate gear. I had no problems.

That tutorial gear is dungeon-grade btw. It has truely never been easier to be prepared before entering dungeons

I'd love to prove my point by inviting you to tank a sastasha for me, but that's clearly not an option.

I'll I show you you're wrong if you'd like, under 2 conditions:

1) I'm not a new player so I cant meet the 'new player' requirement. Are you fine with that?

2) You not believing tanks can hold threat, only hurts you and the people who take your low level tanking advice. I gain no benefit by showing you this. I am willing to start a new char on a server we both agree on, provided you give me some sort of compensation for my time. Does 1mil Gil on adamantoise sound okay? If not what would you deem appropriate?