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  1. #121
    Player
    RiceisNice's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    3,514
    Character
    Flo Fyloord
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    lol wait... how does taking accuracy NOT benefit the tanking role? Taking accuracy helps the tank keep threat, which is pretty important xD.
    Did you read what I said? I literally said that tanks still need accuracy to meet flank caps at the minimum so they don't miss from the front with tank stance. It's not only a benefit, it's mandatory so they don't miss on their enmity combos
    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Apples and oranges, you dont take penalties by taking acc
    Do you understand what you'r trying to say here? It's not apples and oranges when it comes to damage dealt or healing for that matter. If I'm taking accuracy, I'm not taking crit, det or SS which boost my damage. Taking accuracy to make my attacks miss less is exactly the same as a healer taking accuracy to make their attacks miss less, except DPS typically havem uch much more to lose from missing an attack because their dps is contingent on using skills in succession (compared to stirring stone, maelfic and broil spam)



    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Again, ill ask you a question. Why are you up in arms about accuracy but not the MND -> INT conversion?
    Because the MND -> INT conversion comes at the cost of MND for that period of time. This is unrelated to a healer getting free accuracy as to not have to worry about it (versus tanks and dps who still do)


    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Its not as if the game 'forces' any class to slot X stat.
    The game doesnt 'force' DPS or tanking roles to slot accuracy either.
    And neither does it 'force healers' into accuracy, so why are healers special in this regard to have an inherent buff to accuracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Im not sure how free accuracy for healers limits healer limits them to only one function. Care to elaborate?

    I wouldn't mind all content was healing intensive enough to require my attention at all times, but i dont see that as a realistic thing to happen, and ill settle for dpsing during downtime. But yeah, I support the existence of 'roles' in my role playing games
    Just a moment ago, you keep implying it's a problem for a healers to have a choice in choosing to stat for healing, or optimize toward damage. Having less than accuracy cap does not suddenly stop you from casting dps spells.
    (2)
    Last edited by RiceisNice; 04-06-2016 at 08:46 AM.
    ____________________

  2. #122
    Player
    Ghishlain's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    2,168
    Character
    Ghishlain Pyrial
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Im confused. who said it was forced. The game doesnt force any stat. I've search the term "force" on the past 3 pages and only see it from Ghishlain and yourself.
    To quote you.

    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    What the game does do is create a scenario where:
    * tanks can slot stats with only tanking role considerations
    * dps can slot stats with only dps role considerations
    * healers must choose between the effectiveness of their role and the effectiveness of their downtime.
    Implication with the above quote:
    Tanks get one stat paradigm
    DPS get one stat paradigm
    Healers get two stat paradigms

    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    As a dps, you get your cake and eat it too. You can focus every stat into your role and dont take penalties anywhere.
    Tanks are in a similar spot, ACC helps them keep threat. It benefits the role as a whole. Heck, tanks even get atk power from VIT now.

    On healer, you dont get these luxuries. If you take accuracy to take advantage of the your downtime, your healing potential is lowered. Take healing stats and you're less effective during your downtime. Why should dps and tanks get the best of both worlds while healers need to pick?
    Implication with above quote:

    DPS can only meld DPS stat. This is a luxury
    Tank can only meld tank stats. This is a luxury.
    Healer's need to choose between Accuracy or Healing stats. This is not a luxury.

    Therefore, because the healer's have a choice of picking which stats they use, they are at a disadvantage compared to Tanks or DPS who are forced to pick stats that benefit only their primary role and thus tanks and DPS have a luxury that healer's do not.

    "Are forced to" can be regarded as a synonym of "can only" and the above can be rewritten to:

    DPS are forced to meld DPS stat. This is a luxury
    Tank are forced to meld tank stats. This is a luxury.
    Healer's need to choose between Accuracy or Healing stats. This is not a luxury.

    With the context remaining the same.

    Mind you, I have the opposite train of thought. Healer's that are able to choose between two stat paradigms have a luxury that tanks and DPS do not have. Healer's have the luxury of choice.

    I don't quite understand how you feel that a healer who can choose to meld to either to perform their primary role or perform an optional role is at a disadvantage versus a DPS or tank who must meld to perform their primary role.

    You're arguing 1 choice > 2 choices which I vehemently disagree with.

    ===========

    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Again, ill ask you a question. Why are you up in arms about accuracy but not the MND -> INT conversion?
    I have no qualm about Cleric Stance's conversion because to me I see it as a tool for story progression and leveling. How it's used outside that context is also a conscious choice of the players (much like Accuracy vs Healing stats)and I will continue to see it as that.

    ===========

    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Im not sure how free accuracy for healers limits them to only one function. Care to elaborate?
    I never said anything to this effect. Please quote where I may have said or implied this.

    The only thing I've said these last few pages is that I disagree with the fact that healer's having to choose how to meld suddenly puts them at a disadvantage compared to their DPS or tank counterparts who's lack of choice is suddenly a luxury.

    ==========

    [EDIT] I am personally against having a free accuracy boost of any capacity on Cleric Stance and would rather see S-E reduce the accuracy requirements for casual content only. If they choose to add accuracy to Cleric Stance, I hope it's a value that increases gradually based on the healer's ilvl so it scales with content decently without overwhelming the accuracy requirements.
    (3)
    Last edited by Ghishlain; 04-06-2016 at 09:19 AM.

  3. #123
    Player
    tjw's Avatar
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    May 2011
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    252
    Character
    Kyan Ashton
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 50
    How this topic feels like at this point:



    Sadly, this really isn't up to us. SE does give us the freedom (I use this word very tentatively, as in some ways, we can say that SE has restricted healeres) to choose between stats. I have a feeling SE themselves aren't sure of how to place accuracy on healers, considering that 2.X cycle had gear with accuracy (that didn't cut into our main healer secondary stats, mind you), then abolished, and now it seems they're experimenting with materia melding (which does inadvertly cut into smaller amounts of healer-centric secondary stats). Honestly, it's up to SE. Whatever they decide, we go with the flow.
    (4)
    Last edited by tjw; 04-06-2016 at 10:13 AM.

  4. #124
    Player
    Lyrica_Ashtine's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
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    1,132
    Character
    Sadako Yamamura
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 1
    Winsock, before you continue, re-read everything from page 10 and in particular what you're posting yourself
    (1)

  5. #125
    Player
    Moqi's Avatar
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    Apr 2014
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    1,431
    Character
    Goji Degotye
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Botanist Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by RiceisNice View Post
    Yes we do? Accuracy takes up stat budgeting for secondary.
    No, it's one of your secondary stats. If you feel like it's useless and takes up space bring it to SE, not with me. Fact is, i don't need accuracy to heal, you need accuracy to dps. It's your stat.

    Has any bard or tank complained about the need to meld piety? No, because SE gives them enough MP that they don't have to worry about a stat that is not theirs. We should have to worry about accuracy either.
    (2)

  6. #126
    Player
    winsock's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Character
    Chaosgrimm Winsock
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by RiceisNice View Post
    Did you read what I said? I literally said that tanks still need accuracy to meet flank caps at the minimum so they don't miss from the front with tank stance. It's not only a benefit, it's mandatory so they don't miss on their enmity combos
    I dont think we disagree here. Acc helps tanks with their role. Im not arguing anything to the opposite.

    If I'm taking accuracy, I'm not taking crit, det or SS which boost my damage.
    Lol dont be silly, if you're taking acc, its because it a larger dps boost than crit, det, or ss up to the cap... You take this stat as a dps increase.



    Because the MND -> INT conversion comes at the cost of MND for that period of time. This is unrelated to a healer getting free accuracy as to not have to worry about it (versus tanks and dps who still do)
    Completely arbitrary. We dont need mind and int at the same time. We get both for free.



    And neither does it 'force healers' into accuracy, so why are healers special in this regard to have an inherent buff to accuracy?
    wow, if say "Healers NEED mind" I am in no way implying that the game FORCES all of your gearing to mind. If i say "DPS NEED accuracy" I am in no way implying the game forces or makes the choice for you.

    You're being petty. If I said 'the sky is blue' are you going to be like "WINSOCK SAYS THE SKY IS ONLY BLUE, BUT IS GRAY OVER HERE BWHEHAHAHAHAHAH"


    Just a moment ago, you keep implying it's a problem for a healers to have a choice in choosing to stat for healing, or optimize toward damage. Having less than accuracy cap does not suddenly stop you from casting dps spells.
    Same is true for dps classes and tanks, the only difference is it helps those roles while harming the healing role
    (1)

  7. #127
    Player
    Nekotee's Avatar
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    Nov 2014
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,574
    Character
    Akihiko Hoshie
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    The main purpose of taking accuracy as healer is not to increase damage
    It's only to reduce the windows of possible damage

    If you miss it's like hitting with 0 potency it reduce your average DPS

    More accuracy = higher average DPS
    By keeping the damage around the same number.

    ..

    On the opposite all SS crit and deter enhance those number. The purpose is to hit harder and harder.
    (0)

  8. #128
    Player
    Ghishlain's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    2,168
    Character
    Ghishlain Pyrial
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by tjw View Post
    How this topic feels like at this point:



    Sadly, this really isn't up to us. SE does give us the freedom (I use this word very tentatively, as in some ways, we can say that SE has restricted healeres) to choose between stats. I have a feeling SE themselves aren't sure of how to place accuracy on healers, considering that 2.X cycle had gear with accuracy (that didn't cut into our main healer secondary stats, mind you), then abolished, and now it seems they're experimenting with materia melding (which does inadvertly cut into smaller amounts of healer-centric secondary stats). Honestly, it's up to SE. Whatever they decide, we go with the flow.
    It's a nice summation to be frank, lol.

    To be honest and from an objective standpoint, I kinda feel like Riceisnice and Winsock are agreeing with the facts presented but their interpretation comes out in wildly different angles which is leading to this divide.

    I just interjected when I did because I disagree with the opinion that healers are who have to decide whether to meld Accuracy or SpS/Det/Crit are at a disadvantage compared to DPS and tanks who only have one-role decisions with slightly different impacts on their primary role depending on the melds they focus on.

    I will admit, I did kinda miss the point in my previous wall of text but now that I've had time to sleep on it, I'm pretty much just going to say outright what I feel about that tangent I threw out there:
    • A healer being able to choose if they can increase their healing performance or their damage performance puts them at an advantage over a DPS or tank who can only choose to increase their DPS or tank performance. More Choice = Better
    • Melding Accuracy will hurt a healer's healing potential. This is an active choice for the players who decide to go this route because it allows them to fulfill duties that are normally outside their role. Being diverse tends to have a sacrifice in some other category. *Points to classic Red Mage in Final Fantasy history* Healer's who decide to partake in this optional role understand this. They understand they can't have their cake and eat it too.
    • DPS and tanks do not have this option to play outside their role. Therefore they have their cake but they can't actually eat it. (Tanks used to have some semblance of this when the whole VIT vs STR was going on)
    • There's a fundamental difference between coercion versus freedom that seems to get lost in the dialogue and I disagree with the underlying sentiment that healer's are coerced into melding accuracy when they aren't. Healer's just can't have the best of both worlds.
    (0)

  9. #129
    Player
    Sida's Avatar
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    Apr 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    954
    Character
    Sida Bajihri
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghishlain View Post
    [*]A healer being able to choose if they can increase their healing performance or their damage performance puts them at an advantage over a DPS or tank who can only choose to increase their DPS or tank performance. More Choice = Better
    Reason why having forced to choose is considered a bad thing when no one else is that when you can choose one good choice, you are equally forced to take the bad choise. This would be awesome if healer could go just totally damage dealer, or totally healer but as we all know that is not the case expect maybe in very limited static situations.

    Whatever the healer has chosen they have shot them on their leg for the other half of their job. While both, dmg and tank can benefit from their melds 100% of the time, a healer who goes all accuracy only benefits from their melds when they damage, which is not whole fight. Or healer who goes with stats that benefit their healing hardly hit anything when it's their time to do damage. Also only benefitting from their choise only part of the time. Or if they meld half and half, they still only benefit o ly partially on both accounts.

    That is why dmg and tanks have it better. They are not required to gimp other half of their job (since dmg don't have other half of their job, and even OT tanks benefit from dmg stats) which is the case for every healer since that role has dual expectations that require different stats. As soon as tanks start requiring wildly different stats for their dual expectation, and dmg actually get dual expectations, we can start seeing it fair that choise has to be made.
    (2)
    If you say 'pls' because it's shorter than 'please', I say 'no' because it's shorter than 'yes'.

  10. #130
    Player
    winsock's Avatar
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    Jul 2014
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    Chaosgrimm Winsock
    World
    Adamantoise
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    Conjurer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghishlain View Post
    ...wall of text trying to justify your misquote...
    This is not me implying anything. If you need a wall of text to explain an implication, its a good indication you've interpreted something incorrectly.

    I've said directly that "healers need accuracy" but am in no way trying to suggest that the game forces you into it. 'need' is not synonymous with 'force'.

    Example:
    I need to use the restroom
    Someone forced me to use the restroom
    ^ very different things lol

    I have no qualm about Cleric Stance's conversion because to me I see it as a tool for story progression and leveling. How it's used outside that context is also a conscious choice of the players (much like Accuracy vs Healing stats)and I will continue to see it as that.
    Could you elaborate on that because accuracy during the leveling process isnt really much an issue either. Why is it okay have little to no accuracy/int issues while leveling, then create the need for accuracy but not int once you've leveled?


    I never said anything to this effect. Please quote where I may have said or implied this.
    I am on the side of giving healers an acc bonus

    ===
    You argued, quote:
    Basically, what you're implying is

    Capable of only performing your Primary Function > Choice between 2 Functions
    ===

    I am asking for clarification on how giving healers an acc bonus would in any way make healers "capabable of only performing [their] primary function".

    I believed we might not be viewing this segment of the discussion in the same context, so I wanted to give you the opportunity to elaborate in an attempt to avoid making knee-jerking assumptions about your stance.


    [EDIT] I am personally against having a free accuracy boost of any capacity on Cleric Stance and would rather see S-E reduce the accuracy requirements for casual content only.
    To be clear, can we assume 'causal content' includes expert roulette?

    "1 choice > 2 choices which I vehemently disagree with."
    Using your own words, you strongly/intensely disagree with this.

    If you truely feel so strongly about it, why do you support changes to causal content?
    (0)
    Last edited by winsock; 04-07-2016 at 02:19 AM.

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