Melee Positional Requirements

[Koltik]

That assumption though.

Assumption?



If I'm not a good melee DPS, then show me one. I'm always top melee dmg in matches. https://xivpvp.com/character/3371851/Koltik-Morrel

[RiceisNice]

Assumption?

I should have /s'd that at the very least because it's not meant to be a snide comment to anyone, but if you want me to pitch in. There's many variables to go by if you want to do a direct damage comparison (because I'm looking through your logs, and its just as inconsistent when it comes to you outdpsing the ranged/BRD in your party), such as heavy medal, full swing, and burst damage. Ask yourself this; would you prefer a BRD/MCH or a melee to stay on a caster to make sure they don't get any casts off, in regards to the interrupt changes?

I've had a handful of matches where the variance between me and my melee is around 10-20k (and the times it gets incredibly lopsided are usually due to deaths or a short match timer). I've also had matches where my damage dealt gets hyper inflated because I'm targetting a 9 stack tank who isn't dying (because the melee is attacking the wrong target), although that ended up being a loss.

[Koltik]

I'm looking through your logs, and its just as inconsistent when it comes to you outdpsing the ranged/BRD in your party)

The only comment I have to this is player skill. Not all BRD/MCH are the same, nor are melee DPS. However, at the top-end, I definitely am seeing BRD/MCH completely outclass any melee DPS.

[Cynric]

snip.

I've seen ranged breaking that far up as well. The problem I see with going off of damage dealt is it's very easy to inflate for ranged, for melee not so much. But having a huge damage score isn't the most reliable gauge of actual contribution.

If anything I feel like a ranged doing their job properly should definitely be beating us in damage dealt. But we'll still be able to get kills more often in the end.

However as a Ninja the situation is a little different. My positional skills on monk are of little consequence to me,however Ninja kind of needs trick attack to become more reliable in its kit.

[Petite]

[…] and you have auto attacks on top of buffs that increase damage dealt

Auto attacks are practically useless as they don’t auto face your frantically running targets. You can take off GB so you can auto attack too if you think its that helpful. I’d much rather have +20% dmg to all my weaponskills and abilities like GB/WM grants you than unreliable auto attacks.

Assumption?

[...] Not all BRD/MCH are the same, nor are melee DPS. However, at the top-end, I definitely am seeing BRD/MCH completely outclass any melee DPS.

"Assumption"

[RiceisNice]

Auto attacks are practically useless as they don’t auto face your frantically running targets. You can take off GB so you can auto attack too if you think its that helpful. I’d much rather have +20% dmg to all my weaponskills and abilities like GB/WM grants you than unreliable auto attacks.

The problem with BRD/MCH auto attack is that it's affected by a range penalty (as well as any other attack without GB/WM active), on top of their relatively low weapon damage to begin with. It's only been until now that their damage had some what resembelence of consistency, where beforehand GB/WM had the same ranged damage penalty and it'd fluctuate wildly between a 0% and 75%+ damage reduction because they were too far or too close (and they had to address that for seal rock due to GB/WM eliminating your free mobility) With the interrupt changes, there's very little advantage to having GB/WM off when even feint can do more damage on a typical basis (no range penalty), exception being to set up BRD DoTs and MCH procs. There's other things to consider when your target on the move (they aren't casting, for one). And you can also set weapon skills to auto-face target. Or if you're playing standard, you'd keep them within your range anyway with right click.

And since you want to bring up damage dealt (because as I mentioned before, you can't take this for direct context) tell me how you lost when you have less overall deaths. Maybe your tank died with 300 medals at the very end due 9 stacks of heavy medal. There's another factor on healers who focus on preventing damage rather than healing it back up. It's certainly not being overwhelmed.

I'll bring this up again, would you rather send a melee such as a DRG or MNK to harass/interrupt a spell caster like a BLM, or a MCH/BRD?

[Petite]

And since you want to bring up damage dealt (because as I mentioned before, you can't take this for direct context) tell me how you lost when you have less deaths? Maybe your tank died with 300 medals at the very end due to his high stacks. There's another factor on healers who focus on preventing damage rather than healing it back up.

We lost because the enemy drg LBed our tank with less than a minute left and I blew mine too early. Trying to derail the subject is cheap by the way.

My point still stands. Weaponskills and abilities will auto face targets, but your auto attacks won't. If you think melee auto attacks are a big deal, you're sorely mistaken. They are in PvE, but not PvP.

[Dimitrii]

"Assumption"

Wow did they add rating (+/-) on the scoreboard at the end of the match last patch or have I somehow been missing that for the past 3 or 4 weeks wtf lol? Even without seeing the full name I recognize the MCH on that claws team from Famfrit though he's really good. Anyway auto-attacks don't bridge the gap between melee and ranged cumulative damage dealt because as was said before its unreliable unless the foe is standing in one place for some odd reason. Even at reduced dmg from distance penalty, ranged reduced dmg on the move is still more than full melee dmg that isnt registering with nearly as much consistency as ranged. However with the new buff to spell interruption rate Im not sure that many brd/mch even take off their turret stances anymore. I dont really think taking off the melee directional requirements is even needed though for drg/mnk, I mean i'll take the buff to my non burst rotations if you wanna give it to me but DRG feels fine as is. Only really NIN can make a case for this but SE already gave em free buffs last update anyway.

High Five to that fellow DRG from Diabolos too dont see many from my server these days.

[RiceisNice]

Wow did they add rating (+/-) on the scoreboard at the end of the match last patch or have I somehow been missing that for the past 3 or 4 weeks wtf lol? Even without seeing the full name I recognize the MCH on that claws team from Famfrit though he's really good. Anyway auto-attacks don't bridge the gap between melee and ranged cumulative damage dealt because as was said before its unreliable unless the foe is standing in one place for some odd reason.

This is exactly what you want to discourage if we're taking about a melee dps. However, I've seen my fair share of chases where BLMs can manage to do this anyway and still get casts off, and worst off is that they're paired with a WHM so any damage oyu dealt can easily be healed back up because you can't lock down the WHM without stuns. Of course that's a seperate issue, but that aside, my point is while it's not going to bridge the two jobs on a typical scenario, it's that melee shouldn't get free positional bonuses because of that. It's not a perfect scenario for them, but you don't nesescarl want to create that perfect scenario (much like giving the casters a 15% hp interrupt, or removing all those LoS walls on top of that).

Even at reduced dmg from distance penalty, ranged reduced dmg on the move is still more than full melee dmg that isnt registering with nearly as much consistency as ranged. However with the new buff to spell interruption rate Im not sure that many brd/mch even take off their turret stances anymore. I dont really think taking off the melee directional requirements is even needed though for drg/mnk, I mean i'll take the buff to my non burst rotations if you wanna give it to me but DRG feels fine as is. Only really NIN can make a case for this but SE already gave em free buffs last update anyway.

I can't necessarily attest to their motile damage outside of oGCDs or burst. Their weaponskills average around 150 potency +30% from WM/GB, compared to a NIN/MNK getting near 20% with faster GCDs, or a DRG having 10% with higher potencies. However, I can say that I don't really ever take off GB anymore, I'd get the same (albeit more reliable) milage by chasing people down feint, unless I used a 5 ammo reload and wanted to get split shot in for a proc (and use GB immediately after).