Learning How To Be A Ninja

[DarkerOrange]

You can't use damage numbers to compare, you have to use potencies.

Please trust us, your way is far worse.

[Xenon_S]

You can't use damage numbers to compare, you have to use potencies.

Please trust us, your way is far worse.

I'm not sure whether I should face palm at the fact that he only used one sample for testing, or at the fact that he used VA as part of argument, or the fact his AE only did 1.6k damage.

Maybe I should at all 3, but wait I only have 2 hands, friend you will have to lend me a hand for the extra facepalm

snip

You aren't getting it quite right
The calculation is for comparing attacks done WITHIN the trick attack window
I repeat, strictly comparing the potency of attacks done during trick attack
Your SF and MU were not used during the TA window, and hence should not be added to your total damage count within TA

You did 7843 damage within your TA, while with the standard way, it does 9495

You cannot add the dot ticks to your damage because they are not used during your TA
You are saying the damage from 7 attacks is more than the damage from 5 attacks

Now that's out of the way hopefully

Mug is a 150 potency attack
Your own SE did 796 damage, round it up to 800 for sanity's sake
Mug steals 50%damage dealt as hp, effectively healing you for 400
And it's not on demand healing, it's an offensive skill that you hit every 90s
Healers are not accounting for the fact that you get 400 hp back per 90s

Meanwhile second wind is useful because it can be timed and used on demand
I cannot count enough times where it saved me in thordan extreme for holiest of holy, or when in kotr 3 where I get targeted for tether and the blue jump is dangerously close to me

As for overusing stun
VA is a bad example because you shouldn't expect coordination in content that does not require thinking effort
And most of the time it's the mnk and drg with their shoulder tackle/steel peak/leg sweep/ spineshatter dive that preemptively stuns things
Is it annoying? Yea.
Did it wipe the raid? Most likely no, so stop worrying and move on.
If you know you need a stun, get into wasp before hand and hold off on the Jugulate
Is it worth switching back and forth between venoms mid fight? No.


One last thing
We are picking apart your threads and countering it, yes.
But we are not doing it because we dislike you or purely out of spite.
We are ninja mains. We gear it with the latest gear, bring it to the extreme and savage difficulty contents, and study it's skills and rotations in fine details so we can output optimum dps given the situation.
We clicked on this thread because we believe our knowledge of the class can be of help to people who are not as experienced.
We want players to be better, and hence when we see misinformation, we want to correct it.

That's all

[Malicewolf]

I did 1 round of testing. Not 1 round of results only. I already stated I did not place up DE, nor is my NIN optimized. I have not upgraded it at all since the new update as it is not my main, so it is still ilvl 202 (well bought a few 220 HQ, but nor using my Lore or going crazy on upgrades).

It was simply to see the numerical results. The stack of dmg from DE will up the same in dmg%. I do not parse, so these are purely visual results as ticks don't show in battle log (the rest taken from battle log), which means I have to do it piece by piece (meaning I spent an hour testing). Would you like me to spam you with my full results from my excel? I only ran through all of it about a dozen times while recording the results. I went with the one with zero critical's (aside from ticks... never had one without the ticks of mut and SF providing at least 1 crit) in it simply to show the results in the most basic of it's form. I will admit, many of them I threw out because I looked away at a bad moment and missed the tick of dmg from a mut or shadowfang (meaning i'd only have 5 ticks of dmg from a SF or 9 from a Mut).

Simply put, I was testing the data to confirm numbers. Simple as that. Feel free to put up your parse numbers if you want. I have zero issues with accepting I am wrong if I see the evidence of such. The potency for your rotation is about 100 more than my rotation. I do not doubt that. I can see that. The testing was actually to see if I was able to crit with AE if I'd have a higher dmg output, as I was going to say increasing my chances to get a crit AE by getting an additional one in may be worth it.

Potency is one thing, but if the added potency of 440 is based on a small number (40 each tick) I was curious if the vulnerability of 10% would actually be more useful than a high dmging potency of 360 in 1 go.

My Crit AE's were around 2300
If you add in the 10% vul, that's 230 increase.

Because in actuality, the 10% is increasing the potency of each tick by 4 on SF and 3 on Mut (10% of 40 is 4, 10% of 30 is 3).

That is why I was curious to test out the numbers. If we're using just potency numbers, then 10% of 360 (in 1 go) is 36.

Based on fact that there's 6 ticks in SF and 10 in Mut, I wanted to see if the crit of AE would outproduce (as from my knowledge, there is no formula for potency increase based on crit hits). As I said though, looking at the results overall, i found different results than I was expecting.

Please continue being jerks about it, or simply show me some data. I don't respond to "i say because she said" well. Show me something, don't "tell" me something. I have zero issues being wrong about this matter, I simply want to know it for myself. Not depend on someone else's word for it.

EDIT: just saw your edit to your previous post.

To the venoms argument - yes, it's not necessary. Nor is it hard... please try for yourself. I do it easily with zero interruptions to my rotation. Granted, I main a PLD and stance dancing with that is an enormous pain in the butt, so perhaps it's simply because of that perspective.

I am using VA as an argument simply because it is common raid and it happens a LOT in there. Yes, you are right, it's not just NIN's, but if there's a DRG, MNK and NIN, then guess what happens if all 3 decide to maximize their DPS and the NIN has wasp on? I can't stun. Does it cause raid wide wipes? No. Is it annoying? Yes! How do we stop it? Knowledge. I did have a run however where 2 hounds in VA got their howls off and the 2 groups were a little too close. Healers and DPS for 2 groups all died. Tanks and last alliance that didn't get hit by it were standing. It's not common, but it can happen and it's super annoying. Especially when I as a tank get blamed for failing a mechanic because a DPS wanted that bit of extra dmg. DRG and monks can only hold off the attack. NIN's can actually avoid it if they are just a little cognizant.

With Mug, I said it to begin with. It's not substantial, but it can help. If you've never been a sliver away from dying before, than good for you (seriously). I have been many times though. Within 100's of being on the ground. That mug may have been the difference of being on the ground and not. Second wind is fantastic, no doubt about it, but it's a 120 second CD. If you used it prior or even at a bad time, or god forbid, by accidentally clicking the wrong thing, mug is another option. I'm not saying to hold onto it and not DPS. But it's not hard to see it's about to be off of CD and take 1 inbetween rotation click to switch venom if you aren't fully topped off in hp. Simply put, it's not hard to do. It's not necessary either. But I don't like wasting if it's there. Simple as that. If it takes too much effort for you to do, then don't. For me, it's not even an after thought in comparison to trying to time my shield oath to sword oath without losing too much time. The last update helped a lot in that it no longer interrupts my rotations, but it's still on GCD.

And you are correct, my full MUT and SF do not extend through the time TA goes off. However, part of both do They are still doing dmg in that time frame, even if not taking benefit of the vuln. I always keep both up on bosses and ensure I have it running through while I use my TA (once again because prior, I was under the impression it was not snapshot based. I do understand my thinking was incorrect here).

Most likely, cut off half from both (probably less, but I'm just going to round here). That'll take my total to 9168 compared to your rotation of 9495.

With that being the case, I will fully say, yes, I can agree that you produce higher numbers with that (though, I will still test later to see exactly how many ticks of MUT and SF get cut off before I set off TA out of curiosity, especially since it is still fairly close in #). I did indeed forget that not all of my MUT and SF would go through in the same time frame, so my mistake there.

I understand you guys are main NINs. I am fine with you having more knowledge than me in these things, but I will still put up my arguments. Please shut me down with your info, I am fine with that. Your responses are perfectly fine to me Xenon, you have provided numbers for validation. As I said, my testing was really to see if Crit AE was worth the chance, but then due to my error in the timing, I saw results that I found interesting and posted them.

As for the crit hit AE, it would outproduce the standard rotation if it had no crit AE (remember, I was looking to see if the extra chance for AE to crit might be worth it). With my numbers, my crit was for on avg, 2300 dmg. It's a chance and it will by no means always outproduce. For maximizing, yes, the rotation you guys put down will produce on avg higher results. But the potency difference isn't huge. A NIN stacked in crit, with crit food and utilizing IR could produce better with double AE's. Another note, I did not use IR, B4B or anything aside from having huton up in my testing. Visually watching and writing everything down was enough of a hassle without all the extra procs.

[DarkerOrange]

A very simple way to settle this: put up a video of yourself on your NIN attacking one of the SSS dummies for the full 3 mins. We can then clearly see what you are doing and compare it to what we are doing, and tell you exactly where you are making mistakes.

[Eloah]

dont worry so much with being the greatest right away. just do what you can. as you play the job more, you will notice yourself improving. if you ever see me on siren feel free to talk to me, I'll help anyway i can.

[Xenon_S]

Snip

ok, lets take things one step at a time

First, duality aeolian edge cannot crit, thats a given.
So in your original post saying you get 2 chances at AE crit during TA doesn't work

Second, your data comparing your rotation and the standard TA rotation, purely speaking from GCD damage
your rotation included 5 weaponskills in TA plus dots outside of TA. comparing damage from 7 gcds vs 5 gcds does not really make any point, that's all i was saying in the first part of my post
In fact I do appreciate you going through and getting solid numbers and seeing how dots are snapshotted

If the point of your comparison is to see whether getting a crit single AE within TA + non crit DAE is worth more than using the dots within TA
Then I will admit I did not read carefully enough to see that argument before posting, which I apologize
But we cannot control if it crits or not.
Based on your own numbers, the standard rotation did more damage than your double AE rotation during TA
If your first AE crits, it may work out similarly, but rotations aren't built on whether something crits or not.
Quite the contrary, we assume that rng is against us and nothing crits, then we plan out the route where it would do most damage even without crits.
While it is an interesting test, I would say, based on my experience as a ninja main, betting on a crit AE during TA is not worth dropping your dots outside TA

Also I believe i explicitly stated that, i'm not trying to, using your words, be a jerk about it. I don't believe I used any "i say because she said" arguments either, all the points I'm making are from my personal experience and observation.
Now what do you want me to show you? I can easily record myself doing A6S SSS dummy with my current gear, or I can try to replicate your gear and do a SSS dummy of your choice for rotation comparison, but of course crit will affect the results.

and one more thing, there actually is a crit chance and damage formula from early 3.0, found here https://dervyxiv.wordpress.com/2015/...ulae/#more-137

finally some clarifications
yes, i am still only "telling" you things based off my personal experience as nin main, I don't know what i can "show" you as of the moment to convince you, as you state yourself that you do not parse and our gear difference is rather large, i question what purpose showing my 1640 dps over 3min dummy parse will serve to this exchange, aside from potentially getting myself banned for evidence of parsing.
and hopefully i'm not coming off as a jerk to you, i appreciate your effort in collecting the data. do let me know what do you want me to show you

[Malicewolf]

Realizing how huge my last post is now xD
I did say I have no issues with your responses xenon. Mostly with Orange hunting down my posts and simply denying the statements made without actually considering them. You have provided info backing up your statements for the most part and I am perfectly fine with them. Orange started off fine with me, I was genuinely curious about the differences, then she just got rude.

I did not state that was what I was checking just the crit data actually. That was my intent on my original testing. When I thought I had found data that contradicted the standard rotation, I posted that info instead. My original intent was to test the idea of crits perhaps making it worth while. And my rotation is focused on fitting two AE's into the vuln timeframe. The two I am referring to is not considering the duality AE. I do know that can't crit DAE. But if the standard gets no crit and my rotation gets just 1 out of the 2 in it, it can equal the damage. As you said, you shouldn't COUNT of crits going through. But the fact that I have 2 chances to get that crit while I pop IR, imo, if the increase was substantial enough, I would of thought it might be worth considering to keep my rotation instead of switching. The fact is it will likely barely outproduce most likely, meaing the chance of crit hitting would not be worth it.

Sorry about all the confusion. As for that crit chance and dmg formula, thanks, I do know they exist. I was actually referring to potency numbers in specific. There is no way to translate a crit basically increasing a potency from 360 to 400 or something of the sort. That is what I meant by my statement there. I cannot base my crit off of the potency numbers from my knowledge, therefore I couldn't compare it to your previous statement where you provided the potency totals for each rotation.

I will test the rotations out myself, as you can see, I have no issues doing so. I've already been trying out the rotation given in dungeons and bosses with my NIN. Honestly, I don't really see a difference, but how fast anything goes is dependent on the party, not the individual. Personally, everything seemed to die about the same time, but the potency difference is a small margin to begin with, so i'm sure it's hard to see it without a parse. Using the SSS is a good idea though, I will do that.

[Xenon_S]

snip

I'm glad we can resolve the problem between us
Miscommunication leads to overly long posts, and it definately did not help that I was reading them on mobile and missed a few bits here and there
While orange's attitude may be uncalled for, your rotation is, from the perspective of raiders pushing extreme and savage content, not optimal and should not be advocated

The standard opener has been tested and widely used by a large portion for raiding ninjas to be efficient and outputs more damage. While the damage difference may not be very obvious in dungeons, especially given that you do not parse, it is very important in savage raids where every single bit of dps counts. And there is no disadvantage in using the standard rotation in non raiding content anyways.

my 3min dummy parse doing the standard rotation is 1640, im going to try your double AE and see what happens, but i suspect it would be lower as it would throw off my timing with later skills and etc, i will update it later when i do a few pokes at it

now i hope you dont take too much offense on the other thread because i kinda took a crack at the mug/venom/healing thing again.

[Malicewolf]

Perfectly fair. I never went through the NIN guides personally (ironically... I've gone through BLM and SMN and don't even have those...) everything was based on my own experience personally as well as my own insight and reading ingame descriptions. Part of why I didn't realize SF and mut snapshot the potency dmg when it's implemented.

And I do not mind arguments based around giving information. It's when they get on a personal level that it gets annoying. I just need information, not "because I said so" statements. "Do this because of this" is much more effective for me to understand. Otherwise, I will over analyze and put every what if and but statement there is to the test.

I'd be interested to hear the results of what you come up with though. It will likely be hard though as the rest of my own rotation will of course differ from yours i'm sure. I myself will have to re-evaluate my own rotation based around yours. I also vary my own based on party composition. I love having WAR's as i don't have to focus on DE as much... unless the WAR is thinking the same thing as me... and we both fail to put it up. That's always embarrassing...

[Xenon_S]

snip

i did 3 rounds of what i interpreted of what you would be doing for opener + my own optimization in the later rotation regarding CD usage


they were 1549, 1554, and 1590 respectively, over 3 and half minutes, ending after i dish out another set of TA + 90s offgcd burst
note the 1590 parse had both trick attacks crit for 4.8k which inflated the numbers
non of the initial AEs crit'd

opener was suiton-se(kassatsu+ir)-gs(b4b)-de(jug)-se(ta)-gs(raiton)-ae(dream)-se(mug)-gs(duality)-ae
observed burst was around 2.4k

the problem here however, is that after your DAE, there is 6 seconds left on DE and 4 seconds remaining on b4b while ir has long expired.
I chose to throw my dots up as they would still benefit from b4b thanks to snapshots, but after that i had to do a full 3 gcd without slashing debuff, which killed me a little
so even even ignoring the dps loss from dots within TA, the fact that you have to drop DE for a bit or apply dots without any buff makes this inoptimal.

following the standard rotation with my own optimizations, i land 1640+ over the same duration consistently.
i can make a video if you want, but i cant figure out how to record the parse side by side and im weary of the forum ban that may follow it, so take what you will.