People are deliberately ruining the story for others

[Kerii]

The problem with that is that many of our "Mentors" simply wanted a shiny new icon beside their name.

That's their problem. They can turn the status off and not run the roulette. Entitlement is a two way street. If you sign up to help new players you have no right to whine about how you have to help new players.

[Kaurie]

You keep trying to trivialize the time investment; Praetorium alone has 20-30 minutes of cutscenes.

According to this youtube video entitled "Praetorium All Cut-Scenes" it is 35:28. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VPLbImc084

Given that the content is nearly three years old, I think this is a pipe dream. I know the devs made some mention of doing something with the 2.x and 3.x story going into 4.0 so that people didn't have so much to catch up on for the game's second expansion; perhaps they have plans to deal with it at that point? We don't have any way of knowing. Honestly, when I first did these dungeons I insisted on watching the cutscenes, which meant I missed some of the boss fights. It was a bit upsetting at the time, but in retrospect it was a very minor thing and I've long since moved past it.

It may be a pipe dream, but I think it is in Square's best interest to address this. I have seen 3 or 4 new threads complaining about this since Monday this week alone. There is very little the game offers pre-60 outside of story, and to have the story ruined, I imagine, would result in a lot of people quitting entirely. This could be a very significant revenue loss for Square, and adding something as simple as a warning pop up would be a relatively low cost high payout way to address the issue.

[Niwashi]

My only conclusion is that people think I am talking about the runs you manually select from the Duty Finder, which I am not. I am specifically talking about the Main Scenario Roulette whose tome bonus can only be accessed once per day. Next to no-one who intends on actively farming tomes by running MSQ dungeons over and over are going to choose the longer option. I was talking about targeting people who only planned on doing the daily roulette - which, I might add, could even include a few hardcore farmers regardless, assuming they weren't rushing and wanted to do anything else during the cutscene phases until they began the speed runs later on in the day.

Well, the distinction between a full-story version with the mandatory scenes and a faster version where they're either skippable or simply absent would have to be an option that could be selected either individually or on the roulette queue. It could be set so that only the roulette gets the extra story-version bonus tomes, but the people trying to see the story would be queuing for the specific dungeon individually.

(Are there actually a significant number of people who would farm these dungeons? I think they currently give something like 20 Poetics when run individually outside of roulette. Hardly seems like it would be enough to attract much tome farming. I've always assumed the veteran players doing these for tomes were just doing their roulettes, so only there once a day anyway.)

[Niwashi]

If you want to change behaviour, an adjustment needs to be made to the game itself. Possible solutions:

- Recreate the story instances as single player duties and tuned as such. Add in 8 man as a (Hard) option.

This would be a good solution.

- Add in a reward for watching cutscenes - i.e. if cutscenes are fully watched by the same person who also gets a kill on all the bosses - then there is an added bonus reward (or something - seems overly complex to me though)

Trying to track it like that gets complex, plus it doesn't ensure that everyone agrees on whether the extra reward is worth the extra time, but at least it would be something.

Another variant of rewarding people for watching the cutscenes that's been discussed (Knahli described it fairly well a while back) is to make an optional setting when you join/queue for these dungeons. One setting makes the cutscenes mandatory and unskippable, but a roulette for that version gives significantly more tomes, while the other setting leaves the rewards as they are now, and removes the cutscenes from the dungeons, so people can do the run as fast as they usually do now. I think that could work pretty well. People would have a choice between a fast run with no scenes for a modest reward or a longer run with those scenes for a greater reward.

- Add a warning message when queueing in to these for the first time, "Warning: This dungeon has a lot of story content and includes various cutscenes throughout. If you wish to experience the story fully, we recommend creating a party finder group." or something along those lines.

While it would be simple for them to add a warning, it wouldn't accomplish much unless an alternative (like the solo version, or cutscene mandatory version, like in the two preceding suggestions) is available. Currently it's not; PF is no better than DF. Both tend to just get speedrunners.


So there are at least a couple viable options on how SE might be able to fix the problem. Both ensure everyone who wants the story can see it while also ensuring that everyone who is trying to speed farm the dungeons can do so without the story in their way. It's just a matter of convincing SE the matter is important enough to fix.

[Duuude007]

blarg 2 roulette queues

You are trying to create separate queues for something that makes no sense to divide.

Let me draw this out to further explain.

You want 2 queues for CM and Praetorium, yes?

1: Current roulette queue- anyone and everyone queueing to CM or praet gets participants who choose this.

2: New roulette queue- Players who opt in will no longer get participants from queue 1. Only veterans who opt in to queue 2. And let's face it, forcing anything for old content upon a returning player will mean it is opt-out by default, not opt-in.

I hope you see the issue with this. You are shooting yourself in the foot by eliminating the convenience of fast queues. If people are told there's a slight bonus but a huge time commitment? you scare them away.

The very idea you are suggesting undermines the goals you want, you might as well have formed a party finder "no cutscene skipping" group.
Which, incredibly, is already an option.

Getting your reward later than you'd like is an inherently different situation from never getting it at all, so asking one side to give up getting their reward completely.

/slap we have already given you a plethora of ways to get exactly what you want, now OR later. you just choose to dismiss them.

now that's what I call compromise. heh.

/sarcasm


...You can experience the cutscenes right now, with no complaints.
You can experience the combat on flipping attempt 2 at the dungeon, that isn't never.

...You can experience the combat right now, with no complaints.
You can experience the cutscenes at the inn any time after your first clear, that isn't never.

...You can experience the cutscenes AND combat at your own pace right now, by forming a party of 5 people who agree to this, and queueing. Because hey, you are the majority.

Now you're adding that they can also go back and do the fights alone with no cutscenes. So you've upgraded it to offering them a choice, one in which neither option allows them to see the story, but at least they can choose between a couple different ways of losing out on it.

/slap again.

...You can experience the cutscenes AND combat at your own pace right now, by forming a party of 5 people who agree to this, and queueing. Because hey, you are the majority.

Just because you choose to metaphorically cover your ears each time people mention these available options, doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Niwashi]

Show me where I said that new players, or any players, should never be able to see the story. PLEASE. SHOW ME. New players are more than welcome to go back to those dungeons and experience the fights themselves if they missed them due to watching CSs, if they are so inclined.

Sure, if you want, though I've already quoted it once. You said that right here:

New players get a quick queue and are allowed to watch their CSs, although they miss out on fights

Now you're adding that they can also go back and do the fights alone with no cutscenes. So you've upgraded it to offering them a choice, one in which neither option allows them to see the story, but at least they can choose between a couple different ways of losing out on it.

Disjointed bits and pieces from a story aren't a story. The problem (which is a problem SE designed into the format of these dungeons) is that neither the cutscenes nor the fights tell the story due to the way each is always referring to the other. You can only get the story by doing them together in context.

[Skivvy]

Sure, if you want, though I've already quoted it once. You said that right here:


Now you're adding that they can also go back and do the fights alone with no cutscenes. So you've upgraded it to offering them a choice, one in which neither option allows them to see the story, but at least they can choose between a couple different ways of losing out on it.

Disjointed bits and pieces from a story aren't a story. The problem (which is a problem SE designed into the format of these dungeons) is that neither the cutscenes nor the fights tell the story due to the way each is always referring to the other. You can only get the story by doing them together in context.

I'm sorry that I did not state the obvious in that one particular reply. That obvious fact being that that any player, at any given time, can go back through a dungeon to experience a fight. However, I did make a comment along these lines earlier in the thread as seen riiiiight here:

For better or worse, what I have told new players in the FC is that for CM/Praet (these are the two main offenders), just expect to do the dungeons twice to get the full effect. First time you can watch your CSs, but will probably be locked out of fights, and then next time you go back, you can experience the fights themselves.

Is it ideal? Nahh. But it's better than getting all worked up over something that is out of your control. We have on occasion put together some FC runs for new players, but we're a pretty small group and so it's not always possible to put together full FC runs for these things.

And no, I do not expect you to keep tabs on everything each individual person says, but you really need to learn how to debate things better. You are twisting comments, and I would also say putting words in people's mouths, all to make your argument sound better.

At this point, feel free to keep thinking that new players are getting the short end of the stick. If a person is wanting to get their way all the time while playing a game, perhaps an MMO is the wrong genre for them. Things will not be perfect all the time, sometimes you will have to bend, or do things you don't like. That's the deal when it comes to playing with other people.

[Niwashi]

I'm sorry that I did not state the obvious in that one particular reply. That obvious fact being that that any player, at any given time, can go back through a dungeon to experience a fight. However, I did make a comment along these lines earlier in the thread as seen riiiiight here:

And no, I do not expect you to keep tabs on everything each individual person says, but you really need to learn how to debate things better. You are twisting comments, and I would also say putting words in people's mouths, all to make your argument sound better.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth. I quoted that specific statement because you asked me to. And I then immediately acknowledged and discussed the comment about going back and doing the fights in another run. Yes you pointed it out, and I agreed that you had done so. Then I pointed out that it's irrelevant because the fights alone don't give the story either. That bits and pieces pattern (just as you discussed it) is all that most players are given the opportunity for, but it's not the story.

You've pointed out to new players in your FC that, for better or worse, it's what they should expect. My point is that it falls on that "for worse" side. As the game is currently going, I also agree with you that it's what they should expect, since it's what they're likely to end up with. But I'm still going to argue for improving the situation. Ideally, I'd like to see SE improve it by adjusting those runs so the issue never comes up. (There have been at least a couple good ways discussed for doing so.) In the meantime, the only improvement available is for people to be more considerate of others, so I'll keep arguing for that as well.

[nexas506]

I remember my first time trying to run these 2 dungeons. I clearly said i was new and i wanted to watch the scenes.
Regardless of that , the majority of people still rushed through, didn't tell me what to do and didn't wait for me to catch up.
That COMPLETELY ruined my experience.
From now on whenever there's a first timer i always stay behind with them. I don't want their first time to be ruined like mine was.

[Duuude007]

In the meantime, the only improvement available is for people to be more considerate of others, so I'll keep arguing for that as well.

two points.

One: not the only option, but at this point I am repeating myself.

Two: What "considerations (compromises)" are you making? You are stonewalling. Your argument flies in the face of compromise, you want your way or GTFO.