People are deliberately ruining the story for others

[Skivvy]

But your "majority rules" version does exactly that. It considers one side's needs (whichever side happens to have more people) as more important than the other's. And as you said here, there's no justification for that. Majority rule is inherently unfair.

Man, you are thick. As mentioned before, there is a compromise that generally happens in Praetorium and CM. New players get a quick queue and are allowed to watch their CSs, although they miss out on fights, and experienced players get their tomes at the expense of having to carry a person through an otherwise useless dungeon. Is it perfect? Nope! But SE made some bad decisions early on, and so that is simply the best situation most groups can hope for.


If you absolutely cannot fathom why a compromise has to be made for these two dungeons, then there is no reason for anyone to keep this conversation going with you.


I really hope you are trolling. If so, A+~

[Andrea]

Im hearing compromise a lot in this thread but all im seeing is one side being made to do something.

Not really seeing the compromise that the new people are making here...

[Knahli]

I agree that the majority outweighs the few and I would never expect people to have to cater to a single, new player if it really felt stifling for them to do so. That said, I tend to dislike people in those parties anyways because whenever I saw the topic come up, no-one really apologised and said that they were in a rush or had goals they wanted to reach today and were therefore on a time-constraint; rather it was just people sounding like they didn't even want to humour the thought of sacrificing a little time for the new player, whether they were in a particular rush or not. Perhaps that is what is fuelling some of the negative bias in here(?)

Anyways, that's irrelevant because the point is that it's more imposing on a larger number of people and unfortunately that means that the only reasonable option is to sacrifice the desire of the minority considering that it technically can be relived at the inn - as much as I hate that comment. (Seriously, people suggest it so carelessly like it was an equally satisfying option. It's like going to a friend's place to watch a movie and then said friend skipping the first 50% of the movie because they already saw that far into it before then telling you to read a review online about what happened during the first half AFTER the movie ends).


Moving along though, I'm quite fine with people contesting my suggestion or pointing out why it wouldn't be effective or counter-intuitive.... but from what I read(and I admit I skimmed a little toward the end), people aren't really arguing anything that makes sense. My only conclusion is that people think I am talking about the runs you manually select from the Duty Finder, which I am not. I am specifically talking about the Main Scenario Roulette whose tome bonus can only be accessed once per day. Next to no-one who intends on actively farming tomes by running MSQ dungeons over and over are going to choose the longer option. I was talking about targeting people who only planned on doing the daily roulette - which, I might add, could even include a few hardcore farmers regardless, assuming they weren't rushing and wanted to do anything else during the cutscene phases until they began the speed runs later on in the day.

[WinterLuna]

Im hearing compromise a lot in this thread but all im seeing is one side being made to do something.

Not really seeing the compromise that the new people are making here...

Because for some reason people think extra tomes are being given by the new players from the kindness of their heart and not an automatic reward.

[Niwashi]

Man, you are thick. As mentioned before, their is a compromise that generally happens in Praetorium and CM. New players get to watch their CSs, although they miss out on fights, and experienced players get their tomes, at the expense of having to carry a person through an otherwise useless dungeon. Is it perfect? Nope! But SE made some bad decisions early on, and so that is simply the best situation most groups can hope for.

It's not a compromise for one side to get everything they want and the other to be totally locked out of ever getting what they want. No matter how often you try calling it that does't make it one. You're saying that new players, or any players for that matter, should never be able to see the story. The climax of ARR should never happen at all. That's not a compromise solution. It's a total lockout of a major goal of the game. And trying to claim that just getting to see a few disjointed meaningless snippets (that still don't let you see what the story is, but do give a few clues about some pieces of it) should compensate for that goal is total bullshit.

And that it's done for something as trivial as not wanting to wait a few minutes makes it worse. It's not like anyone's challenging your right to get your tome rewards. If the delay were longer or the dungeon time limit shorter, so that watching the cutscenes meant not getting to complete, then we'd have a situation that needs a compromise. As long as doing both is possible, then doing both is the only fair way of handling multiple goals.

I do agree that SE made some bad decisions on the design of these two dungeons, but that's why I want them to fix that.

[Kaurie]

Why are you attempting to adjust peoples behaviour by telling them what is the right way of doing things. Whether it is fair, a compromise or whatever, doesn't matter. People will rush through, because the game encourages that type of behaviour.

If you want to change behaviour, an adjustment needs to be made to the game itself. Possible solutions:

- Recreate the story instances as single player duties and tuned as such. Add in 8 man as a (Hard) option.
- Remove rewards for doing the encounters, thus removing incentive for veterans to participate - This will result in very long queue tiems
- OP's suggestion - this will result in very long queue times
- Add in a reward for watching cutscenes - i.e. if cutscenes are fully watched by the same person who also gets a kill on all the bosses - then there is an added bonus reward (or something - seems overly complex to me though)
- Add a warning message when queueing in to these for the first time, "Warning: This dungeon has a lot of story content and includes various cutscenes throughout. If you wish to experience the story fully, we recommend creating a party finder group." or something along those lines.

Personally, I think only option 1 and 5 above are viable. I also think the it is in the dev's best interest to allocate some funding to this - as this is a very common complaint and likely results in many people leaving the game.

What doesn't fix the problem?

- Telling people on a forum that you're right and they're wrong.

[Skivvy]

It's not a compromise for one side to get everything they want and the other to be totally locked out of ever getting what they want. No matter how often you try calling it that does't make it one. You're saying that new players, or any players for that matter, should never be able to see the story. The climax of ARR should never happen at all. That's not a compromise solution. It's a total lockout of a major goal of the game. And trying to claim that just getting to see a few disjointed meaningless snippets (that still don't let you see what the story is, but do give a few clues about some pieces of it) should compensate for that goal is total bullshit.

And that it's done for something as trivial as not wanting to wait a few minutes makes it worse. It's not like anyone's challenging your right to get your tome rewards. If the delay were longer or the dungeon time limit shorter, so that watching the cutscenes meant not getting to complete, then we'd have a situation that needs a compromise. As long as doing both is possible, then doing both is the only fair way of handling multiple goals.

I do agree that SE made some bad decisions on the design of these two dungeons, but that's why I want them to fix that.

Show me where I said that new players, or any players, should never be able to see the story. PLEASE. SHOW ME. New players are more than welcome to go back to those dungeons and experience the fights themselves if they missed them due to watching CSs, if they are so inclined.

For your enlightenment only, I would love to see these dungeons removed from the roulette system entirely. Then you can see how truly awful it would be for new players to get through the ARR dungeons.

Anyway, I'm tapping out here as there is nothing more to be said.

[Ashkendor]

And that it's done for something as trivial as not wanting to wait a few minutes makes it worse.

You keep trying to trivialize the time investment; Praetorium alone has 20-30 minutes of cutscenes.

I do agree that SE made some bad decisions on the design of these two dungeons, but that's why I want them to fix that.

Given that the content is nearly three years old, I think this is a pipe dream. I know the devs made some mention of doing something with the 2.x and 3.x story going into 4.0 so that people didn't have so much to catch up on for the game's second expansion; perhaps they have plans to deal with it at that point? We don't have any way of knowing. Honestly, when I first did these dungeons I insisted on watching the cutscenes, which meant I missed some of the boss fights. It was a bit upsetting at the time, but in retrospect it was a very minor thing and I've long since moved past it.

[Kerii]

What I would like SE to do is to revamp the roulette system to work better with the mentor system. Players who sign up to be Mentors should be the players who are helping first timers clear content, not every random who just wants their roulette bonus. At least then there is a more fair complaint when new players feel like they can't experience the story or learn how the encounter mechanics work because they're literally just dragged through content.

[Ashkendor]

What I would like SE to do is to revamp the roulette system to work better with the mentor system. Players who sign up to be Mentors should be the players who are helping first timers clear content, not every random who just wants their roulette bonus. At least then there is a more fair complaint when new players feel like they can't experience the story or learn how the encounter mechanics work because they're literally just dragged through content.

The problem with that is that many of our "Mentors" simply wanted a shiny new icon beside their name.