People are deliberately ruining the story for others

[Vidrian]

How? The only thing you see is the intro cutscene showing the dungeon name. and if you go to a dungeon for MSQ, it only shows a clip when you clicked exit
and the 2 lvl 49-50 8man MSQ instances are so face roll, people don't even care whether someone watches cutscenes or not

[Niwashi]

No, you'd need to make another roulette tier for CM and Prae alone and jack up the rewards on it.
...
If you tripled the reward, I MIGHT stick around for 45+ minutes. That's a heavy might depending on how many people are new.

Well, they're already a separate roulette tier by themselves and the suggestion you replied to was explicitly about jacking up the rewards on it and making it require the full story, but with rewards at a level to make watching the full story give the most tomes/time involved. Since this seems to be agreeing with that, it's not clear why you'd start off with "no".

You even acknowledged you might do it. Not necessarily, and that's fine. Not everyone needs to do it. But there would be a lot who would (including at least sometimes yourself, apparently).

The more fully fleshed out version of the suggestion even makes it an optional setting, essentially one speedrun roulette for CM or Prae as they exist now, or an alternate one with higher rewards for CM or Prae where you can't skip cutscenes or move ahead while others are in cutscene. (I'm guessing that the roulette would probably still be just a total of one per day, choose which version to run that day, and not two separate roulettes, but the reward difference would apply to queuing for the individually dungeon as well.) So on a day you're short on time and just want to get something quick, run the faster version. On a day you have plenty of time and want that higher reward, run the slower story-mode version. If you can pick either, then everyone should be happy.

If you left it in the current roulette and FORCED the cutscenes on people? They WOULD drop. You would have people drop EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. 45+ minutes is NOT worth the current reward for them. 100%.

But that wasn't the suggestion.

It is essentially the situation we're stuck with now, though, and the other half of this thread is about how to deal with what we currently have. Currently there's no enforced story mode version, so we're stuck with relying on (mostly absent) courtesy for players to treat the dungeons as a story-mode version whenever there's someone there for the story. The common lack of such courtesy is why people are asking for changes in the system.

[Kaurie]

Why not just re-adjust it so the story missions are single player missions - add in a (Hard) mode that is the current 8-person content that unlocks once you complete the story mission.

[Aldora]

Uh, it did happen to me. In a 100% FC party, no less. I got over it quickly because by my second entry I knew how rude it was to expect others to wait for me.

But sure, reasonable compromise from BOTH sides should be considered. Personally I'm willing to give up extra healer or tank or dps for the majority of the run (if it means I can finish before my son wakes up from his nap)- and in the process I've just helped get 6+ people past content that not too many seasoned players even queue for anymore. You are welcome.

Think about the time commitment you are forcing people to adjust to, with your unreasonable requirements and lack of compromise.

That’s just the point. Since you’ve experience it yourself, you know how it feels to be treated that way. If you as a new player of a game gets treated like this several dungeons in a row, it will spoil the fun for you. Chances are that you will simply quit playing the game because of that.

It’s easy to say “The need of many outweighs the needs of the few”, “Just watch the cutscenes in the Inn”, “Just make a PF with people who want to watch cutscenes”, etc, etc. But, in most cases people don’t take the new players into consideration at all.

You said so yourself: “Think about the time commitment you are forcing people to adjust to, with your unreasonable requirements and lack of compromise.” That’s the real problem we are facing.

Compromise doesn’t come from just one side. Like you said, it comes from both sides, otherwise it can’t be called a compromise to begin with. That’s “subjugation”.

People are only thinking of the time versus the reward given. While there is nothing wrong with being efficient with the time you spent on content versus the reward you get from it (because we all have our own things to do during the time we play the game); What is “wrong” is that people would ignore, berate, insult or simply kick new players because they just want to get the content over with, get the rewards and move on to the next content.

You are not helping a new player by doing that. How is a new player supposed to learn anything from that? I mean, actually learning how to do deal with content. By doing this, we are only breeding more “bad players” (people who don’t know their classes by the time they reach max level or how to deal with certain mechanics). Intentional or not.

I’m not forcing people to do anything or setting unreasonable “requirements”. What i’m saying is that the new player always gets the short end of the stick. If a veteran player finds himself in the “few”, rather than the “majority”, they will simply leave or vote abandon.

If you are struck for time and you barely have enough time to run a dungeon, because you have to go in less than 20 minutes. Why queue up for a duty in the first place? There is no guarantee that you will be able to run a dungeon at “your pace” when you queue up through the DF. It totally depends on the party composition, their gear, their skill level and their attitude.

I also read comments like “They will have to increase the tomes reward if they want me to help”. Helping others doesn’t necessarily have to mean that you should be rewarded tomes/items for it. If you are “helping new players” by completing the content as fast as you can, get the bonus tomes and then leave, then you’re not really helping and i’m sorry, but… That can’t be considered to be praiseworthy. Even if you “helped 6+ people pass said content”.

Helping someone comes from the “goodness of one's heart” (as cliche as it sounds) where they would set aside time to help someone by investing and support into them. This can be by giving explanations about mechanics and skills, tips on how to enhance their skills with the job they are playing and guiding them through the game in general or making some gear without expecting a reward (next to perhaps a smile and a “thank you”).

I’ve personally set aside time to queue up for Steps of Faith, in order to grant 47 players access to Ishgard. The reason why i did that, was because of people posting on the forums that other players (mostly tanks) immediately left the second they entered the trial (because they didn’t feel like doing it). During those runs i would give people tips about the mechanics of the trial and assigning certain people to certain tasks like handling the snares and the Dragon Killers.

I didn’t care if we wiped several times and had to redo the entire encounter. Seeing that message at the end that X has received the achievement for clearing the Steps of Faith was enough of a reward for me.

Especially if you see them running around Ishgard the next day.

Our community has several problems and most of them are related to attitude. You can’t fix someone else's attitude. However, i’ll be the first one to say that this does not apply to the veteran players alone. New players are equally to blame for these problems.

[Duuude007]

That’s just the point. Since you’ve experience it yourself, you know how it feels to be treated that way.

No, since I’ve experience it myself, I know how it feels to treat the whole party respectfully (not just one person, the WHOLE party) and come up with the most amicable compromise. As well as what not to do. AKA what the OP (and supporters) are trying to force. If you are unwilling to live with majority decision or even CONSIDER compromise, you know where the door is. SE has provided you with ways to make your own parties to fit your own niche demands, and no risk of dealing with people who disagree with you. The rest of us are willing to take that risk, whether you are or not.

TLDR:

Tome bonus benefits seasoned players, and fast queues benefit new players. For the sake of argument I will concede that these factors effectively cancel each other out, so let's not further muddy the waters with these points, and address the controllable points of party play that actually matter in this debate.

Seasoned players are generally willing to sacrifice dps/heals to give new players in CM/Praet all the time in the world to watch cutscenes, without complaint. These are their concessions.

Tell me, what are your concessions? Because as far as we can tell, you are expecting to get everything without sacrificing anything.

That is not compromise.

[Velhart]

op

I understand why you are upset. On the other hand, I highly recommend not using the Duty Finder if you are looking to go through a dungeon like Praetorium and watching the cutscenes. I would either get some friends together or use Party Finder and specify you are doing it for the story. You don't even need to bring eight people into the dungeon anymore, especially since chances are, your friends or people helping you will be lv.60. This is an MMO, so it is a good idea to rely on friends to get stuff done in the fashion you like instead of depending on seven others you don't know who do not.

Thankfully for Heavensward content, the major important cutscenes are put at the beginning or end of the dungeon to not intrude on one's experience. At least SE learned from that.

[Ilitsa]

OP's problem is precisely why my FC makes sure the new players get to run castrum and praetorium in a full premade group each time. we'd rather spend the time letting them see these things the way they were meant to be, than have them feeling like their experience was ruined. it's not cool.

[Aldora]

No, since I’ve experience it myself, I know how it feels to treat the whole party respectfully (not just one person, the WHOLE party) and come up with the most amicable compromise. As well as what not to do. AKA what the OP (and supporters) are trying to force. If you are unwilling to live with majority decision or even CONSIDER compromise, you know where the door is. SE has provided you with ways to make your own parties to fit your own niche demands, and no risk of dealing with people who disagree with you. The rest of us are willing to take that risk, whether you are or not.

[snip]

Seasoned players are generally willing to sacrifice dps/heals to give new players in CM/Praet all the time in the world to watch cutscenes, without complaint. These are is their concessions.

Tell me, what are your concessions? Because as far as we can tell, you are expecting to get everything without sacrificing anything.

That is not compromise.

Might i ask where you get that idea from? Because, i’m getting the feeling that you haven’t really read what i’ve been posting with my past 2 post.

If you are reading my posts, thinking that i support the OP’s suggestion (in regards to locking people into place when a new player is watching a cutscene) and you're mistaken, my good sir. (^_^ )

What i AM saying is that these seasoned players tend to ignore these new players in order to finish a dungeon at a record pace, without actually assisting the said players when they f.i. get lost while trying to catch up. But, if the tables are turned and the seasoned players find themselves in the “minority”-group, they’d rather complain and leave/vote abandon, rather then reaching out and helping these new players.

That was the underlying subject of my posts.

[Duuude007]

What i AM saying is that these seasoned players tend to ignore these new players in order to finish a dungeon at a record pace, without actually assisting the said players when they f.i. get lost while trying to catch up. .

Most of my argument is directed at the spirit of discord the OP and supporters are trying to press. It wasn't all directed at you.

That said...

'Tend to' seems to be a misnomer, I consistently see people helping those who get lost, and only once in hundreds of runs have I needed to answer a question because nobody else happened to speak up ahead of me. Its usually to the effect of "cast return and use the shortcut at the entrance if you got lost".

Its a really simple solution and there's no excuse to not know how to point someone at the shimmering teleport beacon.

[Niwashi]

Rather, there's no justification to consider players A's needs are more important than player B's needs. Because of this dilemma, an agreement is established at the beginning of any dungeon on how to proceed, majority rules.

But your "majority rules" version does exactly that. It considers one side's needs (whichever side happens to have more people) as more important than the other's. And as you said here, there's no justification for that. Majority rule is inherently unfair.

Now, in far larger scale situations, including thousands or millions of people, even ascertaining what everyone's needs are, let alone trying to meet them all, can become completely impossible. So sometimes in the real world we're stuck with the inherent unfairness of majority rule, simply because nothing better is feasible, and the best we can manage is to try to mitigate the damage that causes. (And it's caused a lot, as anyone who's considered a minority in their home country can attest.)

But when we're talking about a situation with only eight people and a very limited set of objectives, there's no obstacle to meeting all of them. As you've even admitted here, nobody's needs are any more important than another's. You have to meet everybody's needs in order to have a successful run. If you want to skip anything, whether it's a cutscene, an optional area, or the final boss fight, that's a decision that has to be unanimous in order to be fair. A majority isn't the same as a consensus.