People are deliberately ruining the story for others

[Greedalox]

16 pages of -
"What about the new player?"
"What about the 7 other players?"

[Niwashi]

I say this every time a topic like this pops up but I'll say it again. For Castrum and Praetorium, add an extra checkbox option that allows players to voluntarily accept a variant of the dungeons where party members are locked from progressing while cutscenes are in play.

It already exists. Its called Party finder- you can set rules such as "no cutscene skipping" You set the rules, with that comes expectations.

But that "no cutscene skipping" option doesn't do anything. Knahli's suggestion essentially comes down to an enforceable version of it, where if you go in saying there will be no cutscene skipping, then there will actually be no cutscene skipping. That's not the case now. Put up a "no cutscene skipping" PF and it will just be trolled by players doing their speedrun where they expect an extra tome bonus.

It's a good suggestion that would meet both groups' needs. You can go without that option set and get some slight tome reward for a speedrun. Or you can go on a more time-consuming run with all the cutscenes in it and get a larger bonus. There would be plenty of people choosing each and everyone could get the version of the dungeon they want.

In order to coerce high-level players into continuing to accept such lengthy runs, double if not triple the tome reward for players who accept such terms.

Uh, that will have the reverse effect. In fact, it already has been done, and DID have the reverse effect...

You seem to have missed the pivotal phrase of what you quoted, so I highlighted it. The extra bonus we have now is for everyone, regardless of how they complete the run. He's suggesting a bonus that would be specifically and exclusively for players willing to go for the slower version.

[Duuude007]

But that "no cutscene skipping" option doesn't do anything. Knahli's suggestion essentially comes down to an enforceable version of it, where if you go in saying there will be no cutscene skipping, then there will actually be no cutscene skipping. That's not the case now. Put up a "no cutscene skipping" PF and it will just be trolled by players doing their speedrun where they expect an extra tome bonus.

Then they would be violating the agreement established prior to entering. So yes, it certainly does have a contract between party leader and member. Which is certainly punishable when violated.

It's a good suggestion that would meet both groups' needs. You can go without that option set and get some slight tome reward for a speedrun.

So a type of run that the average veteran player (the people you want to incentivize) would not be interested in running due to lack of reward, like "Battle on the big Bridge".

Or you can go on a more time-consuming run with all the cutscenes in it and get a larger bonus. There would be plenty of people choosing each and everyone could get the version of the dungeon they want.

Tomes per minute is the magic number. If it is in any way lower than what a player can do spamming (for a former example) Wanderer's Palace, then WP becomes the go-to place for everyone farming tomes. If it is much more? People will spam it as fast as they can.

You seem to have missed the pivotal phrase of what you quoted, so I highlighted it. The extra bonus we have now is for everyone, regardless of how they complete the run. He's suggesting a bonus that would be specifically and exclusively for players willing to go for the slower version.

I didn't miss it, I simply have witnessed the consequences in either situation. If you have a way to reward more tomes per hour than other content, it will be exploited and minimized for time. If it cannot compete with a more efficient option, it can ultimately undermine the player's access to willing-to-queue players. This suggestion will have the same end result that it had the last time they tried it. Which was- people spammed it even faster and even harder.

Unless you have something new to contribute to this tired suggestion to make it better, it is doing the same old thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.

16 pages of -
"What about the new player?"
"What about the 7 other players?"

Yes, it keeps coming up. Unfortunately a few people feel more deserving than the people next to them.

As has been said time and time again, even by devs, the majority decides the path forward in any party. Disruption of the majority's decision violates EULA.

[Saito_S]

snip

I'm big on the story and, in general, think people shouldn't be so up in arms over losing 30 or 60 seconds because someone watched a cutscene or the tank had to brb for a second or whatever. That said, I don't agree with your stance at all, as it applies specifically to Prae and CM.

The problem is that you are singling out one side. You're putting the obligation to compromise and not have one's goals met COMPLETELY on the people who are there for a roulette and don't want to watch all the cutscenes, while absolving those who are there to see the cutscenes or get a full clear of any responsibility to compromise on what they want in any way. Think about it. You talk about "everyone's" goal being met, but that is impossible. Because the person who is just there for the completion reward doesn't meet their goal simply by eventually completing the instance. They want to do it relatively quickly. That's the point; they're running a roulette instead of doing something else that could give them potential rewards. If all the cutscenes are included, then the time/reward ratio suddenly becomes horrid. So their goal isn't being met if they spend 15 extra minutes in a single instance waiting for a newbie to watch the cutscenes.

I'm not saying this is a good situation. But it's SE's fault, not any one player's fault. And "watch the cutscenes while the rest of us go on ahead" IS a compromise. It's not ideal, but often it's the best we can get in the face of a ridiculous situation. I think we can ALL agree that creating these two long dungeons, setting them as 8-player DF content, and putting tons of cutscenes in them that make up a big portion of the end of the 2.0 story, was a terrible idea.

CM and Prae present a unique problem because their cutscenes are SO LONG. When it comes to other content, I come down firmly on the side of "you can wait and deal, and if you run ahead and lock them out of a boss room, you're a douche." Because the rest of the time, that's like... a minute, maybe two? But CM and Prae have what, half an hour between them? That's way too much time. Strangers who have run these instances a million times are not obligated to wait.

The last passage in your post illustrates what I mean. You're making it inappropriately one-sided. One could just as easily ask those who absolutely must watch the cutscenes during the dungeon why they can't just grab a few friends or FC mates or something and bring them along. Either bring enough people that your group comprises a majority of the party, and can dictate the speed of the run/let early boss pullers die, etc., or run it uncynched in which case you only even need a couple of friends of they are overgeared enough. That's part of the issue here, as well: running CM and Prae with buddies who are willing to wait on your cutscenes is WAY easier now than it has ever been before, thanks to unsynch running which means you don't even need a full party.

"Meeting everyone's goals" is impossible if those goals are in conflict, so it absolutely does come down to what the majority of the party wants. And that IS fair. How would you expect things to go, if not like that? If I Q into roulette and get Haukke Manor, and I really don't want to do full clear because I'm in a hurry and only there for the bonuses, and the other 3 people are all leveling a class or are new and all of them want a full clear, well... too bad for me then! It happens; I'll mutter to myself, suck it up, and move on. Or if I'm really THAT unwilling to do a full clear, I'll drop and eat the penalty and run the roulette again later or something.

Saying that the game doesn't revolve around one player, and that sometimes we have to compromise on what we want because we are playing with other people, applies to everyone.

[Knahli]

It already exists. Its called Party finder- you can set rules such as "no cutscene skipping" You set the rules, with that comes expectations. There is no good reason to make a core game setting that disables freedom of progression when the window of its applicability is so narrow.

That comparison makes absolutely no sense. Party Finder offers no incentive for players who are not new to even bother and completely relies not only on people to actually look through the list of recruiting parties for nothing in particular, but people who are willing to help just for the sake of being helpful but only if they have the time and patience to dedicate toward it in that given moment.

Also, I am not sure how you managed to come to the conclusion that a "core game setting" which only applies to two dungeons in the entire game disables freedom of progression when it's a completely optional feature for both new and old players to select at their discretion. Are you new and want to watch cutscenes? Select that option and get queued with fellow new players as well as high-level players doing their roulette who are content with spending more time on the run in exchange for being rewarded with extra tomes. It is not even remotely similar to throwing up a Party Finder and hoping you just so happen to do so when seven or so very friendly and helpful players are online, randomly looking through the list for no good reason and have time to burn.

(And that's while ignoring the fact that new players would have no idea that they would even have needed to take precautions in the first place).

Uh, that will have the reverse effect. In fact, it already has been adjusted in a similar fashion, and DID have the reverse effect... So they ultimately went back to the lower, more balanced, tome values.
2, 3? how about 10 times-- See how aggressively people will spam the dungeon and make use of the tome fountain for personal profit.

Forcing the majority to do something other than what the majority wants to do, creates a boycott of said content. Good luck with the grand return of pre-DF queues when that day arrives.

TLDR: if you are a minority member not getting what you think you deserve, find a group of willing participants so that you are no longer queueing as part of a minority. You can find 4 like-minded people, right? Right?

Again, I don't know what you mean by "having a reverse effect". What will? People will be so offended that SE are trying to help story-driven newbies that they deliberately avoid the longer roulette variant which offers higher pay-off? People will be so interested in the longer runs that there will be no-one left for speed runs? Assuming the latter, then... that's..... incredibly unlikely. The whole reason people even do speed runs and spit in the face of new players who express their wish to watch cutscenes is because they lack the patience to bother with it; you're lucky to see one person willing to oblige them in the entire party in my experience. You'll still have people who have the time but don't feel it it's worth the reward and people who don't have the time and therefore won't even consider the idea. Even if most people still opt for speed runs, you will surely have a more notable collection of players offering themselves into the longer MSQ Roulette just so they can get "more" from a single run. I hear a lot of people like to watch Netflix while they Tank and PvP so I'm sure that even if it does turn out lop-sided, it will still be in favour of faster runs.

See how aggressively people will spam the dungeon and make use of the tome fountain for personal profit.

I am talking about the MSQ:Roulette whose bonus is only available once a day.... unless I am not understanding something here(?)

[Niwashi]

Then they would be violating the agreement established prior to entering. So yes, it certainly does have a contract between party leader and member. Which is certainly punishable when violated.

The goal isn't to get people punished. The goal is to get the dungeon run the way the members of the party agreed to. By making an optional version where we could be assured people wouldn't skip because skipping doesn't exist, the whole issue goes away entirely.

It's a good suggestion that would meet both groups' needs. You can go without that option set and get some slight tome reward for a speedrun.

So a type of run that the average veteran player (the people you want to incentivize) would not be interested in running due to lack of reward, like "Battle on the big Bridge".

Well, I've never seen a problem with "Battle on the big Bridge" if you want that to be the comparison. There are plenty of people running it to keep queue times short. How much more do you need?

But really, the better comparison is simply the versions of CM and Prae we have now, if the group speedruns them. We're not recommending a change to the current CM or Prae run. We're asking for a second optional setting for them.

Or you can go on a more time-consuming run with all the cutscenes in it and get a larger bonus.

Tomes per minute is the magic number. If it is in any way lower than what a player can do spamming (for a former example) Wanderer's Palace, then WP becomes the go-to place for everyone farming tomes. If it is much more? People will spam it as fast as they can.

It'd probably aim for similar but slightly higher tomes per minute. I think that would get selected a fair amount despite many players no longer caring about the cutscenes. It wouldn't get those who are genuinely limited on available time and cannot do a long dungeon. Nor would it get those who actively dislike the cutscenes. But it would get those who are just going by tomes/minute as well as (obviously) those who want the full story run.

So your point is that people would therefore keep running that version? Ok, so what's the problem with that? We want plenty of people choosing this version, as it's the version that would ensure people who want to can see the full run.

Or is your point that when the cutscenes are done and you're in the combat portion of the run, people would do the combat sections fast? Well, I suppose some players might find that hectic, but at least they get to take part in both the cutscene portions of the story and the combat portions of the story, so it's a lot better than having to get locked out of one half or the other. And many people who want the story may like the combat sections being fast anyway. So again, I don't see what the objection is.

This optional type of run would end up getting a mix of those who want the full run and those who are willing to do the full run if they get enough bonus reward for doing so. But both would be getting what they want out of it. If it didn't offer what they want, they'd simply not select that option and do the run the way people do now, or would do something else.

This suggestion will have the same end result that it had the last time they tried it. Which was- people spammed it even faster and even harder.

Except that they've never tried it.

[Ashkendor]

If you're going to party with other players, then you need to make sure that all players in the group get what they're there for. That's what being multi-player is all about, working together. If everybody has the same goal, then you can go directly for that goal. If different members have different goals, then you go for each of them until everybody's goals are met.

It's not necessarily possible to accomodate everyone's goals all the time, though. In this case, there's a basic conflict between the two groups of people. You have one group that wants to be able to watch all of the cutscenes and participate in all of the fights; some people go as far as not wanting to skip mobs at all. You have a second group that wants to get in and out of the dungeon as fast as possible. Odds are you have a third group that doesn't care and is just there for the ride, but that's immaterial because they will be fine either way you go. So, you tell me how you can get one group through the dungeon as fast as possible while still allowing the other group to watch all the cutscenes and participate in all of the boss fights.

If you don't want to form a party of like-minded players, and instead are more interested in the rewards roulette gives you for going with a random group, then suck it up and accept that you're in a random group and can't run towards your own goals exclusively. It may take extra time to meet other goals you don't even share, but that's what you signed up for. Don't be a douche bag and ruin other people's game just because of it.

If you don't want to form a party of like-minded players, and instead are more interested in having the full dungeon experience and watching all of the cutscenes as well as participating in all of the fights, you still need to suck it up and accept you're in a random group and can't run toward your own goals exclusively. You may not get to fight every boss if you choose to watch the cutscenes, but that's what you signed up for. Don't be a douche bag and ruin other people's game just because of it.

See how easy that is to turn around? You need to quit looking at things so lopsidedly. >_>

[Terribad]

If you're going to party with other players, then you need to make sure that all players in the group get what they're there for. That's what being multi-player is all about, working together.

I already stated it should be "the majority rule's" meaning if most people want to watch a cut scene, then we're watching cut scenes. Expecting 7 randies to have the same goal is unrealistic. So do what most people want to do or don't mind doing in that dungeon. If you're the odd man out, drop it or deal with it.

[Duuude007]

I already stated it should be "the majority rule's" meaning if most people want to watch a cut scene, then we're watching cut scenes. Expecting 7 randies to have the same goal is unrealistic. So do what most people want to do or don't mind doing in that dungeon. If you're the odd man out, drop it or deal with it.

Yes, that is the very expectation of a duty roulette. random group of possible people expected to cooperate. And that means doing what 50% +1 want to do. If the majority don't want to be forced to wait, great, if the majority wants to wait? great.

PF, on the other hand is a NOT random group of people, expected to follow rules set by the leader. If you joined but plan to contradict the rules? They are totally in their right to boot/report you.

The people arguing for the OP want all the special snowflake benefits of PF without any of the work or time commitment. to establish the party.

'fair'. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Andrea]

Well, I've never seen a problem with "Battle on the big Bridge" if you want that to be the comparison. There are plenty of people running it to keep queue times short. How much more do you need?

The only reason Battle on the big bridge doesnt take overly long is because its in the popular trial roulette.

Neither castrum nor prae have that luck.

Bridge literally gives nothing except a card that can be gotten elsewhere, of course it wouldn't be run if it wasn't stuck in a roulette thats incredibly quick.