Are there more tanks playing now?

[Ironos]

Yeah, your accessories weren't the only thing that made you good or bad, but they're a pretty big indicatior when you go into somewhere like Fractal and get a WAR with 25k HP in Defiance which is completely unnecessary.

No more skill is required to maximise DPS, that DPS contribution just got lowered. There's no skill cap increase, the less skilled players just gained damage and enmity.

I'd actually argue that the skill cap for tank DPS did increase. Since we now produce less enmity outside of tank stance, and the large damage and number of tank swaps we see in Midas/Savage, we can't stay out of tank stance for 95% of a fight anymore. Before 3.2 "Stance dancing" effectively meant "DPS stance unless high damage/TB." Now it actually means stance dancing. So yeah, skill cap to increase our DPS did increase, just our potential DPS got lowered.

[Awful]

No, DPSing is easy too. The point is that people who actually tanked properly AND tried to do the most DPS they could got a straight nerf that put them closer to that PLD in full VIT that only spammed the Halone combo. People who wore STR were generally good tanks.

This made me lol we have a lot of bad DPS in this game that even in ilvl 210 can't break over 600 DPS it's easier to DPS as a tank there's no positionals,No trances,procs, being a 1400+ DPS vs doing the bare minimum is truly a staple in 3.2. As for being a STR tank back in 3.0-3.1 they were better however, this did not mean that people who wore STR accs tanks were good tanks, there were many MANY bad tanks in STR gear and those tanks running around in full VIT didn't change or adapt so they're the same tanks as before.

[Reynhart]

the less skilled players just gained damage and enmity.

Again, you're calling on gear to judge skill...that's just stupid.

You're making all of us great service by stopping being a part of the tank community.

[FallenWings]

Skill cap increase = Excellent!
Reward for Effort decrease = Not so great

It's great that (actual)Stance Dancing is made much harder and tanks are actually having to consider their tank priorities alot more now but the translation of effort to reward has been lowered.

To put into perspective in regards to DF dungeoning, it's much better to roll as a DPS than a tank simply by virtue that you are confident you will perform better than the norm of the respective roles.

So if we were to put effort into value and translate that effort into contribution it would be something like:

1-10 effort meter.
Tank: Each point of effort translates to 100 contribution.
DPS: Each point of effort translates to 150 contribution.

A rather poor tank would have an effort total of 3 resulting in 300 points worth of contribution versus a DPS with 3 points of effort would result in 450 points of contribution. If for example, you as a player can score a 9 on both roles, it is simply much more worthwhile to run as a DPS since each point of your own effort simply has more weight to the total of contribution.

E.g
Poor Tank = 3 Effort = 300 Contribution
DPS(You) = 9 Effort = 1350 Contribution
Total Contribution= 1650 Contribution

VS

Tank(You) = 9 Effort = 900 Contribution
Poor DPS = 3 Effort = 450 Contribution
Total Contribution = 1350 Contribution

It's no wonder that alot of people are now put off from DF dungeoning as tanks. They have to work harder, for less rewards. While knowing that if they swapped places with the poorly performing DPS, the run would go much faster as result. Worst off, if your healer is incapable, then the weight of your contribution takes another hit thanks to having to sit in tank stance to aid your weaker healer. My contribution is also dependent on the capability of someone else as well? GAH!

It's a also pretty much fact that if you willingly stayed full VIT while being aware of the statistical facts of STR bonuses and tradeoffs, you are indeed worse than STR tanks. Both roles have their garbage players, and due to the nature of STR tanking, it was more abundant. But it was also cold hard fact that a well executed STR tank simply outperformed a VIT tank statistically. This is absolutely undeniable.

You were objectively bad if you were stubborn and stayed full VIT to fulfill a "iron wall fantasy" despite knowing of the STR meta and refusing to adapt as a tank player.
The real problem that was solved with the changes(and rightfully so) is the confusion of the "right stat." No more dumb tradeoffs that compromised an aspect of your role. Now your stat makes you stronger in all regards, as it should have been.

Seriously don't go STR accessories now. The trade off is not worth anymore.

[Launched]

Again, you're calling on gear to judge skill...that's just stupid.

You're making all of us great service by stopping being a part of the tank community.

Please, read my posts. I keep saying it's one of the indicators. Just one. Was every STR tank good? No, but at least when you first get into the dungeon you'd be more likely to think they're going to make it a good run than someone overloaded with HP. I specifically mentioned examples like if the tank is badly geared they shouldn't be wearing STR gear.

[Hayward]

People would have better arguments if they stopped using extremes as crutches. The above argument, I'd dare to say, goes well out of the way to leave out DPS who do enough damage to complete duties AND tanks who fulfill their duties in managing aggro and adding in damage whenever possible. Speaking for myself only, I've rarely seen DPS do that little damage when I've tanked and I spare no effort in doing damage as a DPS or Tank. So the above post really doesn't hold much water with me.

As an aside, anyone claiming to be a career tank who avoids dungeons due to these changes really needs to stop lying to us and, more importantly, lying to themselves.

[IndigoHawk]

Directly comparing dps shows how corrupt tanking has become. Tanks want to optimize their own dps, when they should optimize team damage first, then do as much damage as they can without burdening the healer.

The contribution comparison places no value on tanking, only on dps.

A good tank with a poor team is more effective than a bad tank with a good team. Why? Because the tank impacts the performance of everyone else. The better the tank is, the better everyone else can perform.

If instead you dps or heal for a poor tank, your skill will be wasted because you will be limited by the tank. It makes no sense to argue you can do max contribution if the tank can't do their job.

I can't tell if the statement "My contribution is also dependent on the capability of someone else as well? GAH!" is sarcastic or serious. Obviously the performance of the party should depend on everyone.

[Reynhart]

Please, read my posts. I keep saying it's one of the indicators. Just one.

There's no skill cap increase, the less skilled players just gained damage and enmity.

Since only VIT tanks gained damage, just connect the dots on what you're really saying there.

at least when you first get into the dungeon you'd be more likely to think they're going to make it a good run than someone overloaded with HP.

Frankly, no. For the rare time when I'm not the tank, I really fear that the tank I have just jumped the STR wagon without any real understanding of how to manage it. It's probably also a confirmation bias, but I tend to trust a higher HP pool, because the important part, for me, is to do a smooth run, not a fast one.

I've seen too many runs filled to the brim with wipes, just because people tried to eat more than they could chew.

Tank: Each point of effort translates to 100 contribution.
DPS: Each point of effort translates to 150 contribution.

Did you just arbitraty put a value on each role "effort" and calculate that the best is to accumulate as much point as you can on the highest base effort ?
Nobody need more that just basic calculation skills to find that

[Syzygian]

Can this thread and other cesspools of dated stat pontification go away now please?

Its over and its done with and a skilled tank is a skilled tank now, they're all wearing VIT. (Mfw Xeno made his A5S guide sitting pretty with 23k hp in Deliverence...)

Tanking is much more balanced in its challenge now. New content is forcing us to manage every aspect of our job while still maximizing our dps. It puzzles me why people are so fucking butthurt over this. Hell, at i220, I'm almost matching what i did at i210 just because the inflated crit/det melding and higher weapon damage from the seph weapon almost totally make up for the nerf.

There are all sorts of latent "buffs" in these changes too. We benefit from both vit and str party buffs, food buffs our dps more than any other job, and we're the only job that can buff our right-side AP through melds.

Move on.

[Synestra]

I'd actually argue that the skill cap for tank DPS did increase. Since we now produce less enmity outside of tank stance, and the large damage and number of tank swaps we see in Midas/Savage, we can't stay out of tank stance for 95% of a fight anymore. Before 3.2 "Stance dancing" effectively meant "DPS stance unless high damage/TB." Now it actually means stance dancing. So yeah, skill cap to increase our DPS did increase, just our potential DPS got lowered.

I pointed out this some time ago but cheers for making it more clear, tho im not sure how much this affected WAR's as BB combo is still their best DPS combo so it might be not that bad for them(might need to run some dungeons as WAR to test this out). But for PLD and DRK they need to now choose if they use enmity combo or DPS combo while in DPS stance as STR is not carrying them anymore when it comes to enmity and not all groups have NiN, atm i like that when im in SwO/Grit-off i actually need to keep eye on those enmity bars and that didnt happen in 3.1 because of STR.