Are there more tanks playing now?

[RocheKat]

"Tanks don't have to be as perfect with their cooldowns."

Right... unless you want to take as little damage as possible so your healer can spend more time doing damage.

Somehow 150 damage > 250 damage > 400 damage was fun but 120 damage > 200 damage > 320 damage isn't?

[Launched]

Oh, so you were that kind of tank...the one so full of himself who tries to pretend than DPS on tank is hard to improve, as if the rotation was not utterly basic.

No, DPSing is easy too. The point is that people who actually tanked properly AND tried to do the most DPS they could got a straight nerf that put them closer to that PLD in full VIT that only spammed the Halone combo.

And the one who considers that STR = good tank and VIT = bad tank, totally ignoring the fact that it does not change in any way how you play your tank and how you manage your cooldowns.

People who wore STR were generally good tanks, and people who wore VIT were generally bad tanks. That's a fact, with few exceptions (STR tanks that didn't pop cooldowns, tanks using VIT to make up for bad left side etc.). If you're not willing to play your job well, you're bad, and people wearing VIT when they didn't need it weren't trying to do their best.

In the end, it's everyone else's loss when good tanks don't queue as tank anymore and go as DPS/healer, so you end up with bad ones that do single pulls or don't pop cooldowns. I have just as much fun doing dungeons as DRG or WHM as I did on 3.1 WAR.

[Hayward]

No, DPSing is easy too. The point is that people who actually tanked properly AND tried to do the most DPS they could got a straight nerf that put them closer to that PLD in full VIT that only spammed the Halone combo.


People who wore STR were generally good tanks, and people who wore VIT were generally bad tanks. That's a fact, with few exceptions (STR tanks that didn't pop cooldowns, tanks using VIT to make up for bad left side etc.). If you're not willing to play your job well, you're bad, and people wearing VIT when they didn't need it weren't trying to do their best.

In the end, it's everyone else's loss when good tanks don't queue as tank anymore and go as DPS/healer, so you end up with bad ones that do single pulls or don't pop cooldowns. I have just as much fun doing dungeons as DRG or WHM as I did on 3.1 WAR.

Medic! I strained my eye muscles from reading this post and rolling them too much.

Your entire premise that tanks who wore the right accessories (i.e. never jumped on this wannabe DPS bandwagon in the first place) were bad is complete rubbish. These tanks could be trusted to get the fundamentals of the job right and afforded healers the space to throw in some damage if they saw fit to do so. They also aren't so reckless as to think they can pull 7-8 enemies and live through it, especially in these new endgame dungeons.

[Reynhart]

People who wore STR were generally good tanks, and people who wore VIT were generally bad tanks. That's a fact, with few exceptions (STR tanks that didn't pop cooldowns, tanks using VIT to make up for bad left side etc.). If you're not willing to play your job well, you're bad, and people wearing VIT when they didn't need it weren't trying to do their best.

It's a fact based on the vey few tanks you see or heard of in regards to the whole community. It's called confirmation bias.

It's also far more dependant on the rest of the team, especially, the healer, who, depending on its skill or its gear, could need a higher safety net offered by a larger HP pool.
And again, it has nothing to do with how you "play" your job. You make it sound like "having good skill" as a tank can be summed up as "wearing STR accessories".

The sad part, is that the changes...changes nothing about how you play your job. You'd still need to understand the flow of each fight to pop your cooldowns accordingly, know your (pretty basic) rotation to do the most damage you can, etc...stance dancing is now even more a testimony of good tanks, since enmity has, at last, became something you have to really manage.

[SpookyGhost]

Your entire premise that tanks who wore the right accessories (i.e. never jumped on this wannabe DPS bandwagon in the first place) were bad is complete rubbish. These tanks could be trusted to get the fundamentals of the job right and afforded healers the space to throw in some damage if they saw fit to do so. They also aren't so reckless as to think they can pull 7-8 enemies and live through it, especially in these new endgame dungeons.

I think it's pretty indisputable that if you knew the STR meta existed and chose to go against the tide, you were unoptimal. Bad? Maybe not, but it's definitely a bad sign when you know that the key to STR tanking was being a good tank in general and you decide to... not to do that. I think there are people, to this day, who never understood the STR meta - you didn't just pile it on 24/7 and not pay any mind to your HP/VIT. You tried to meet an HP threshold, and then invest in STR; So as you get more gear you're allowed more leniency with your accessories, which will keep your HP pool the same but increase your outgoing damage. So by piling on VIT, you may afford your healer 1 extra GCD, but you will lose damage on all your GCDs. In terms of dungeons and speed pulls, this was fine for PLD but WAR can literally self sustain and it was a gDPS gain for DRK.

There used to be a significant trade off from going Slaying -> Fending, and a bit smaller trade off going Slaying -> Crafted. Now that everything's been equalized, using a Slaying accessory and taking a chunk out of your health will only get you marginal gains at best and you'd probably see more gDPS just taking the extra VIT which could result in 1-2 extra healer GCDs which would actually be better.

VIT tanks were generally fine as tanks (they could mitigate things and hold aggro) and they likely didn't even know the STR meta existed, though due to that they were also generally unaware of how to properly speed pull - basically, if you did any kind of research at all on your job, you'd discover the STR meta so... it's sort of hard to avoid it without being completely inept from the community. I'm sure a lot of VIT tanks could do the whole tanking thing, but not at the speed/pace of a STR tank, and even if they did they'd still get slower times and significantly less DPS on the bosses. Now that everything's been equalized those VIT tanks that did pull big like the STR tanks are on equal footing, meaning min/maxing there will likely see less gDPS than min/maxing as a DPS.

As an example, say there's a tank that does (made up numbers inc) 500 DPS on a single pull and there's a DPS that does 1000. Maybe the tank is using tank stance, so the min/max tank would turn it off and self heal and etc resulting in say +150 DPS between the loss from the healer and the gain from the tank. Meanwhile, the min/max DPS could blow offensive CDs, use a different AOE rotation, and get like +300. In a perfect world you'd have a min/max tank and a min/max DPS, but if you can only have 1 the DPS is going to be the faster route.

The point is even if you go in with an exceptional tank, unless you also have exceptional DPS and an exceptional healer, you'd be better off going as an exceptional DPS and hoping for either an average tank or an exceptional one. The caveat to this is when you run into tanks that do single pulls - in this case, I'd rather be the tank and get the train moving along, which is largely why I prefer playing tank in dungeons. Then again, in my experience, you can still get those melee DPS who refuse to AOE and those BLMs who do their 2.0 rotation... but I digress.

[IndigoHawk]

People who wore STR were generally good tanks, and people who wore VIT were generally bad tanks.

Just wanted to agree with others that you are wrong, as health alone did not tell the difference between "expert tank maximizing dps while fulfilling tank role and not being a burden on the healer" and "wants big numbers and short queues, can't hold aggro on even 1 target".

With the recent changes, more skill is required to maximize tank dps, not less. If you are actually interested in tank skill and weren't in it just to have higher dps than dps jobs, then you should be happy that the changes increase the skill cap.

[Launched]

Medic! I strained my eye muscles from reading this post and rolling them too much.

Your entire premise that tanks who wore the right accessories (i.e. never jumped on this wannabe DPS bandwagon in the first place) were bad is complete rubbish. These tanks could be trusted to get the fundamentals of the job right and afforded healers the space to throw in some damage if they saw fit to do so. They also aren't so reckless as to think they can pull 7-8 enemies and live through it, especially in these new endgame dungeons.

It's not rubbish at all. "Wannabe DPS wagon"? It's a fact that STR accessories were better in most situations than VIT ones no matter what SE intended. If you knew that STR was better in whatever situation you were going into, and you still chose VIT, you were doing something wrong. Of course there's exceptions, I already mentioned a couple. The only thing that's complete rubbish here is your assumption that VIT meant the player was safer to heal, could pull more and could let the healer DPS more. That wasn't true at all with proper cooldown usage, and self healing on WAR/DRK.

The sad part, is that the changes...changes nothing about how you play your job. You'd still need to understand the flow of each fight to pop your cooldowns accordingly, know your (pretty basic) rotation to do the most damage you can, etc...stance dancing is now even more a testimony of good tanks, since enmity has, at last, became something you have to really manage.

It doesn't change my playstyle at all, it changes how much I can offer a group as a tank vs other roles. I lost DPS and I'm not easier to heal. VIT tanks gained enmity and damage. Healers have gained more damage (and even accuracy). DPS have gained more damage.

Just wanted to agree with others that you are wrong, as health alone did not tell the difference between "expert tank maximizing dps while fulfilling tank role and not being a burden on the healer" and "wants big numbers and short queues, can't hold aggro on even 1 target".

With the recent changes, more skill is required to maximize tank dps, not less. If you are actually interested in tank skill and weren't in it just to have higher dps than dps jobs, then you should be happy that the changes increase the skill cap.

Yeah, your accessories weren't the only thing that made you good or bad, but they're a pretty big indicatior when you go into somewhere like Fractal and get a WAR with 25k HP in Defiance which is completely unnecessary.

No more skill is required to maximise DPS, that DPS contribution just got lowered. There's no skill cap increase, the less skilled players just gained damage and enmity.

[Reynhart]

It doesn't change my playstyle at all, it changes how much I can offer a group as a tank vs other roles. I lost DPS and I'm not easier to heal. VIT tanks gained enmity and damage. Healers have gained more damage (and even accuracy). DPS have gained more damage.

You're not easier to heal but you're definitely harder to kill.
As for enmity, I don't know how it goes as a WAR in 3.2, but as a PLD, I definitely generate far more than before when I'm in Shield Oath, so I'd even say I didn't lose much DPS, since I can afford far more Royal Authority.

[Kabooa]

Your entire premise that tanks who wore the right accessories (i.e. never jumped on this wannabe DPS bandwagon in the first place) were bad is complete rubbish.

Players who do not adapt to the game, whether it was going strength before or going vit now, are 'bad'. That's the point of a changing game. It isn't about 'punishing' or 'rewarding' a static playerbase. It's about making adjustments. You either adapt with that, or you don't.

The developers -could- have just gutted strength with no attack power linked to Vitality. This means they understand that tank damage output is a thing, that they want it to be a thing, but without the hoops and perceived detriment while gearing a tank brings.

[Hayward]

Players who do not adapt to the game, whether it was going strength before or going vit now, are 'bad'. That's the point of a changing game. It isn't about 'punishing' or 'rewarding' a static playerbase. It's about making adjustments. You either adapt with that, or you don't.

The developers -could- have just gutted strength with no attack power linked to Vitality. This means they understand that tank damage output is a thing, that they want it to be a thing, but without the hoops and perceived detriment while gearing a tank brings.

Sorry that you'll have to use different avenues to make gil other than meldable STR rings, but that justification rings hollow. In my opinion, the devs took too long to make this correction and allowed things to get almost too far out of their control upon the release of Heavensward. Tanks really never should have been allowed to use Slaying rings in place of Fending. Imagine a Summoner needing healing accessories because some joker at these other fourms theorized they could be used as healers (thankfully, Yoshi put the brakes on that foolishness from the jump).

As far as I'm concerned, the fewer wannabes in the tank pool, the better. The quality of tanks has certainly gone up since the correction.