[spoilers]3.2 MSQ Discussion/Reaction thread

[Frederick22]

snip

What I have came to think so far is that most ascians ( specialy Lahabrea ) wanted Hydaelyn dead, but Edibudus not. Of coruse that doesnt mean that he doesnt want that Zodiark takes control over all.

Edibudus doesnt seem to see hydaelyn as a parasite but rather a tool.

[FJerome]

What I have came to think so far is that most ascians ( specialy Lahabrea ) wanted Hydaelyn dead, but Edibudus not. Of coruse that doesnt mean that he doesnt want that Zodiark takes control over all.

Edibudus doesnt seem to see hydaelyn as a parasite but rather a tool.

Elidibus, unlike the other Ascians, seems genuinely intent on Restoring The Balance (TM), which would mean that Hydaelyn has to survive as she's what balances Zodiark.

[CyrilLucifer]

I absolutely agree with both of you.

To return things to how they should be, in Elidibus' mind, Hydaelyn and Zodiark must become one in some form. I just didn't want to interject my Elidibus goal theories in a post about Unukalhai though, since I was asked about him, not my opinions on what I think he's attempting to do.

Also, apologies for all the typos in that big post, I'm still cleaning it up.

(totally unrelated to anything at all, but did you know that the Black Griffon PvP attire uses the Ascian glove model? How did I never notice this? Thank you, artbook, for showing me the light.)

[Neophyte]

Ok, i forgot that those ascians back in the SMN quest wear weapons and masks. But it's still odd.

But why does Elidibus need Unulkalai at all?
Why can't Urianger do those things for Elidibus? Why tell Urianger more secrets, if he already placed another spy among us, who he can trust way more?
In your theory Unulkalai and Urianger are fulfilling exactly the same purpose: Tell us something to do, based on Elidibus' information.
There is absolutely no need for two spokesman of Elidibus to 'control' us.
Also Elidibus has his WoDs to take care of unwanted summonings... Why should he sometimes use us (Sephiroth, 2nd summoning of Bis/Rav) and sometimes them (3rd summonong of Ravana).

It's just a little too much: WoD + Urianger + Unulkalai, all sided with Elidibus, just to let us slay primals or slay them thereself.
Because that's exactly what we're doing anyway. Elidibus could literally drop a letter on our doorstep with 'Attention: new primal threat detected' and we would take care of it.

What about Y'shtola? Shouldn't she notice something odd, if he's a corpse with an ascian within?

[CyrilLucifer]

Ok, i forgot that those ascians back in the SMN quest wear weapons and masks. But it's still odd.

But why does Elidibus need Unulkalai at all?
Why can't Urianger do those things for Elidibus? Why tell Urianger more secrets, if he already placed another spy among us, who he can trust way more?
In your theory Unulkalai and Urianger are fulfilling exactly the same purpose: Tell us something to do, based on Elidibus' information.
There is absolutely no need for two spokesman of Elidibus to 'control' us.
Also Elidibus has his WoDs to take care of unwanted summonings... Why should he sometimes use us (Sephiroth, 2nd summoning of Bis/Rav) and sometimes them (3rd summonong of Ravana).

It's just a little too much: WoD + Urianger + Unulkalai, all sided with Elidibus.

I don't believe Urianger is 'sided' with Elidibus, so to speak, however he recognizes that Elidibus has knowledge that we need and is speaking the truth in some regards. He tells you that if you speak to him in the Sands; he doesn't mention Elidibus by name but because we have external knowledge as players, we know who he is referring to. He probably believes it is beneficial to continue communications for the sake of everyone and even Hydaelyn, since it's likely the other Scions wouldn't listen as aptly.

A few reasons for why Elidibus is doing things the way he is:
1. It keeps Elidibus himself free to do other things. It's the same with Lahabrea; he used his Lessers to deal with the boring daily Ascian things, like, say, spying on you, or teaching Primals how to summon while he went and dealt with spoken politics. Lahabrea was arrogant enough to even leave Nabriales to this job. That seems quite demeaning and it probably explains why Nabriales was annoyed with Lahabrea.
2. Elidibus also doesn't do it himself because why should we trust him? The last time we saw him, we drew our weapon against him, and that was only after 2.0 when the only Ascian we had encountered was Lahabrea.
3. It keeps you busy and unable to interfere with him. It's better if you're doing what you do best in slaying Gods than having you actively attempting to interfere with him or his WoDs.

Why is he laying this all on us?
Because we have 3 Ascians dead. Elidibus doesn't want to take chances and lose any more. He's pulling everything he can out to reach his goals, even if it requires playing extremely defensively and throwing everything he can at the source of the issue. It does not benefit Elidibus in any way to directly meddle with you, given we'll likely be hostile. I mean, let's be honest here, even if he told us every word of the truth in one Eorzea-shattering scene, why should we believe him? We have no reason to.

If you don't believe Unukalhai is related to Elidibus, finally, how to you explain his name and its direct relation with Zodiark? How do you explain him spouting Elidibus quotes at us and why Urianger mentions we need to trust Unukalhai (again, speaking to him in the Sands after 3.1/3.2)?

So, who do you think our dear Alpha Serpentis is? A simple boy with a gift who happens to have relics so ancient that no one even knew they existed anymore (3.0 Ex primal triggers)?
. . .Then who is this boy's master? And why does this boy's master know the things he knows pertaining to 'the fate of this very star?' And why does his 'gift' allow him to resist primal tempering?

What about Y'shtola? Shouldn't she notice something odd, if he's a corpse with an ascian within?

I actually mentioned this in my big post. You're quite right, Unukalhai specifically goes over this and it's one reason why the Scions are distrustful of him.

He changes his dialogue to have this when you ask him about himself and finish 3.2's quest:

There are those such as Archon Y'shtola, of course, who are sensitive to [aetheric] shifts, and remain suspicious of my motives. . .

I was wondering this same question myself, but SE beat me to the punch in answering it. That they even chose to cover it solidified my reasoning that he is a Lesser Ascian rather than Elidibus - though I still can't rule Second Best Ascian out entirely.

[CyrilLucifer]

Wait a second. I apologize for the double post, but SE added the Unukalhai/Regula cutscene to the Unending Journey. Check the patch notes. I actually didn't see it in the notes until I was looking through my Unending Journey and saw the quest now had 3 clicks instead of 2 and went to check.

Good news for all of you who skipped the cutscene randomly, since I know there were at least 2-3 of you on the Lore forums who mentioned accidentally skipping it.

Now SE, just add him being cute to the Unending Journey and all will be forgiven. I'll be waiting.

[Neophyte]

I don't [...]

A few reasons for why Elidibus is doing things the way he is:
[...]

Why is he laying this all on us?
Because we have 3 Ascians dead. Elidibus doesn't want to take chances and lose any more. He's pulling everything he can out to reach his goals, even if it requires playing extremely defensively and throwing everything he can at the source of the issue. It does not benefit Elidibus in any way to directly meddle with you, given we'll likely be hostile. I mean, let's be honest here, even if he told us every word of the truth in one Eorzea-shattering scene, why should we believe him? We have no reason to.

This doesn't explain why he needs Unulkalai: Urianger was doing all this already for him.. telling us when extreme primals show up.
He doesn't need to convice us of the truth(tm), he convinced an ally of us already, which the WoL/the Scions trusts.
He doesn't need us to slay primals anymore, because he has the WoDs (which do nothing anyway, except spying on us (because Urianger + Ulukalai are totally not enough to track our moves) and slaying primals themselfs saitama-style (like literally with one punch).

If you don't believe Unukalhai is related to Elidibus, finally, how to you explain his name and its direct relation with Zodiark? How do you explain him spouting Elidibus quotes at us and why Urianger mentions we need to trust Unukalhai (again, speaking to him in the Sands after 3.1/3.2)?

So, who do you think our dear Alpha Serpentis is? A simple boy with a gift who happens to have relics so ancient that no one even knew they existed anymore (3.0 Ex primal triggers)?
. . .Then who is this boy's master? And why does this boy's master know the things he knows pertaining to 'the fate of this very star?' And why does his 'gift' allow him to resist primal tempering?

That's the big question. What makes me think is, SE didn't make any effort to hide the connection between Urianger/Elidibus or give us any strong hints, before it was shown directly in cutscene.
Now there's Unulkalai, doing exactly the same thing as Urianger before, but now it's all mystery with hidden hints like connection of names and stuff.
We know already that Elidibus manipulates or uses people we trust to pass us information about ex primals or the truth(tm).
It's just odd to have two characters doing the same thing (passing information from Eldibus to the WoL), one where the connection is punched right into your face (Urianger) and one where it's hidden.

I know that this are no lore-based assumptions, more storytelling-wise assumptions, but I just don't buy it and feel we're getting a red herring there. ^^

Future will tell, I think.

[CyrilLucifer]

As for the top part: The answer is right there in Unukalhai's dialogue. He wasn't expecting Krile to be versed in operating Allagan technology and we needed someone to help awaken the Fiend. Unukalhai was the one intended to do that. So yes, he's playing an active role. He's not just sitting around telling us to do things, spying on us, and leaking us information like you're saying he is, he went to Azys Lla with us and showed us where to go. Urianger couldn't see Elidibus' will through there because he lacks the Echo, so Urianger is out as an option for aiding us against the Triad, all he can do is push us to trust Unukalhai - which he does.

And we don't really know how strong the WoDs are on Hydaelyn; we don't know if they would be capable of stopping the Triad, that's a pretty big assumption based off of very little evidence because we don't know anything about them in comparison to our strength. When we encountered them, we had just had an Echo vision and when you have an Echo vision, you go passive and stop moving, basically completely vulnerable. Then when you awaken, you're disoriented. Keep in mind that we solo'd Ravana, too (gameplay and story segregation; I can link you to another thread about why it's basically not possible for some of these battles to have anyone but the WoL in it, Ravana story mode is one of them; arguably the Ex versions, too, since our relic was destroyed when we attuned and it's not like there was more than one relic for others to attune with). So it's not like they're doing anything we haven't.

As for the bottom -

The difference is this:
Unukalhai serves Elidibus. Or, his master, if you prefer. He is loyal to his master, and we don't know if his master has any connection to Hydaelyn or our goals or anything, just that his master is extremely knowledgeable about things very few people are and is mysteriously quoting Elidibus.
Urianger serves Hydaelyn and the people or Eorzea. He is not loyal to Elidibus. He has a different role entirely. Think of meeting a new person. When your friend vouches for them, you're more likely to trust them, right? Same thing here. This is Urianger's purpose. He is not Elidibus' ally, Elidibus cannot rely on Urianger to do what he wants him to do because they have different goals. Elidibus can only guide, and guiding isn't reliable.

Also, narration is entirely the reason why Unukalhai is "hidden," as you say. We have quite a few scenes from Elidibus' point of view (and even one from Lahabrea's!) - our character does not know what we know. This is the big thing. Our character does not know that Urianger is messing around with Elidibus. It's not, as you say, obvious. Unukalhai is Elidibus speaking to and interacting with our character. The scenes we have with Elidibus and Urianger are from Elidibus' PoV and it's SE speaking to us players. That is why one is blatant and the other is not.

Well, I agree to disagree, but a red herring that completely negates piles of evidence just for the sake of shock value isn't a red herring, it's bad storytelling. While I can admit that that SE doesn't always have the most solid narrative structure due to being limited as a MMO, they don't flat out lie to you in the foreshadowing department. Most twists this game are foreshadowed quite well - even something crazy and unexpected like Estinihogg isn't pulled completely out of a random behind, considering it was made clear early on that a dragon's lifeforce is in their eyes. Ul'dah was very actively foreshadowed as well; it was clear there were huge problems to those who were looking for it. Even Lahabrea was foreshadowed! You can see his dark crystal on Thancred's neck for a very short window of time before Titan.

I think the only stupid twist that wasn't foreshadowed that I can think of was G'raha's final decision - and even the twist of his ancestry was so heavily foreshadowed it was screaming at us and hitting us over the head with a bat. Just like Unukalhai. One reason why the twist of his final decision was so stupid was precisely because it wasn't foreshadowed, it had no backing to it whatsoever. If anything, it was completely contradictory to the independent character we knew. That is bad storytelling, and that is what will happen if Unukalhai isn't related to Elidibus.

Narratively speaking, if we're going on SE's previous history regarding plot twists, the twist itself isn't going to be that he's related to Elidibus, because that's the obvious one that SE isn't trying to hide, but that, for example, he's going to die for us (because SE loves those grand sacrifices) or something similar, showing that not all Ascians are horrible.

[LineageRazor]

or teaching Primals how to summon while he went and dealt with spoken politics.

While this was likely a typo, I now totally want to see a Primal summoned by other Primals. Like some kind of Primal^2. It'll temper other Primals into an unstoppable Primal army, and eventually there'll be an offshoot camp of non-tempered Primals that we'll end up doing daily quests for, and...

I'll stop now.

[CyrilLucifer]

While this was likely a typo, I now totally want to see a Primal summoned by other Primals. Like some kind of Primal^2. It'll temper other Primals into an unstoppable Primal army, and eventually there'll be an offshoot camp of non-tempered Primals that we'll end up doing daily quests for, and...

I'll stop now.

I honestly gave up trying to proofread that post, I wouldn't be surprised if it had so many absurd typos in there. But yes, it's a typo.