3.2 PLD: Clemency and Divine Veil

[Nyalia]

Just keep in mind that DV doesn't affect the user. It shields the rest of the party for 10% of the user's max HP.

[Daeana]

Just keep in mind that DV doesn't affect the user. It shields the rest of the party for 10% of the user's max HP.

I completely agree with you it doesn't overshadow the healer role it has its own entity on the type of save that it is

[Reynhart]

wait.... how is a PLD tanking damage... in any way related to brez balance or role bounds?

It's related to "PLD is the "only person" who can be that one person because of its ehp"

Or tank LB. Of course none of these have anything to do with brez balance. Brez comes into play when you failed to take appropriate actions in the first place.

But your issue is not with brez, it's about "one job being able to save a whole screwing party".
I'm just pointing that there are already numerous ways for "one job being able to save a whole screwing party".

To put the shoe on the other foot:
What if healers had a skill that dumped their aggro onto a tank, with say, idk, a 1-2 cooldown?

What if a DPS had a skill that dumped its aggro onto a tank...oh, wait.

[ZacEvans]

Oh for the love of Christ, leave Paladin alone! Clemency is just fine, and Divine Veil is rockin'. WHM is perfectly fine, and to be honest, reading all this I have NO idea what your problem is. Are you afraid people are going to double-up PLD in raids and healers will be put to shame? I swear to you that won't happen, worse thing that could happen in that scenario is they both pop Convalescence at tank-busters with the OT assisting healers with a Clemency that'll heal them for 50% of what they just healed the MT for. Maybe the Ot will also throw on DV for tank busters for a healer to trigger, adding more shields to the MT, and switch it when a tank swap happens.

There is no possible way you can spin Clemency and Divine Veil as this horrible ungodly thing. IT LITERALLY MAKES YOUR JOB EASIER, BOTH OF THEM! Do that and take offense with SMN, they flat-out STOMP on your toes with brez AND healing options.

What are you mad about?

[Fyce]

IT LITERALLY MAKES YOUR JOB EASIER, BOTH OF THEM!

That's what he's complaining about. The fact that PLD can, once in a blue moon, save a teammate from (maybe) dying.
In his opinion, it's a healer's job. Exclusively.

Yes, it's completly absurd.

[Kosmos992k]

What if healers had a skill that dumped their aggro onto a tank, with say, idk, a 1-2 cooldown?

Shroud of Saints in effect does this. The healer dumps half their aggro instantly and very quickly the tank can easily regain the aggro lead on any/all mobs pon the healer simply by using their normal aggro maintenance skills. The net effect is that the healer shed aggro to the tank.

WHM sprints ahead in a dungeon, body aggros a bunch of mobs, uses assize and maybe a swiftcast-ed medica II, then transfers the aggro to you?

I've seen healers pull a pack and bring them bak to the tank expecting the tak to take them, and popping shroud of saints just as they arrive at thet tank. The net effect is exactly what you describe. Oh, and while we're talking about someone using sprint, I consider the fact that DoM players have no penalty for sprinting to be a clear lack of balance. Sprinting does not in any way affect the ability of DoM to do their job, while Sprinting cripples any DoM, especially Paladin. A Paladin has to manage their TP, HP and MP, all but one of our primary battle skills consume TP, and other skills (including Flash) consume large quantities of MP.

It's your responsibility to use skills AoE threat skills. Would this be okay? Healers occasionally being able to take care of your AoE threat for you?

That's really not at all an equivalent situation to allowing PLD to possibly execute a battle-raise, or for that matter use Clemency and Divine Veil. Those are all situational skills, and frankly, even with battle raise capability, the 8-second cast time and large MP consumption make the use of Raise extremely situational.

Your example has the healer intentionally sprinting ahead and proactively face-pulling mobs. That's literally usurping the primary role of the tank. Situational 'healing' skills such as Clemency, Divine Veil and (assuming we had it) battle raise do not even remotely tread on the primary role of a healer. Even if you can propose theoretical situations where 1 PLD can save a wipe by using HG, and raising a healer, it can easily be countered by pointing out that the same PLD would be better popping the LB before everyone falls, or if the healer sees the wipe coming, they pop their LB and all is well again. Those well neglected tank and healer limit breaks are there for a reason, it's just that the community has fixated on burning bosses making the LB mandatory for finishing the boss, or a phase.

[winsock]

Oh for the love of Christ, leave Paladin alone!
...
IT LITERALLY MAKES YOUR JOB EASIER, BOTH OF THEM!
...
What are you mad about?

I not mad at anything. I didnt think I was using language or a writing style that indicated anger like all caps or strong language. I apologize for my writing style not accurately reflecting how I feel.

It does make the role easier, but I dont see it as a good thing.

Coordinating heals and making sure they land on the correct target at the correct time is fun.
I enjoy that thought at the back of my mind that says: "I fail if i screw up my timing just once"

The initial implementation of clemency was cool in that regard.
If clemency did something significant, it was usually because healer(s) dropped the ball.
Now granted, as mentioned before that resulted in the skill becoming underutilized and SE was correct in directing their attention towards trying to make the skill more useful

Shroud of Saints in effect does this.

It does not.

Just as everyone has some responsible over their own hp bar, everyone has some responsibility over their own enmity generation. SoS doesnt work with out the tank generating their own emnity.

My original post was suggesting that the PLD skills DV and Celemency should take that approach instead of their current one. Such as DV providing a Convalescence-like effect to the entire party rather than a buffer to everyone but the PLD. In this way it it could be used to boost healing effects like AST/SCH shields before a big hit, or a WHM AoE afterwards, couldn't ever directly replace those initial healer skill activations in any content.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I love the way the new Paladin works, he heals for more then my healer until he runs OOM.

Clem/Sheltron are fine. In fact I wish Paladin was made for of the healing tank, warrior the dps tank, and dark knight the lifetap+dot tank.

[Kosmos992k]

It does not.

Just as everyone has some responsible over their own hp bar, everyone has some responsibility over their own enmity generation. SoS doesnt work with out the tank generating their own emnity.

The net effect if to halve the current aggro on the healer, which, if the tank is doing anything but browing your posts here, will result in aggro being shed in favor of the tank. You are once again ignoring actual reality of play in favor of your pet theory.

However, having discussed this with you I know find myself thinking that Clemency should be traited to do an AoE heal at level 60 with increased potency and reduced re-cast time, casting time and cost.

[Jpec07]

I get the sense you're one of those people who hated Tricks of the Trade pulling and Misdirect pulling in WoW.

Really, there will always be some overlap between the jobs, because all of them need to be able to function independent of one another with various degrees of ability. We play in an open world for most of the game, where we don't rely on others to heal us or to deal damage. This has always been a huge difficulty with the trinity system, and why class/job design can be so difficult--put these self-sufficient jobs into a group, and you need to figure out how to enforce roles without gimping the jobs. One of the biggest ways they do this is by making it so that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; a party operating together and playing on one another's strengths will be more capable than if they just all did their own thing. And this is why we see this overlap.

Divine Veil doesn't give healers less to do, it makes it so a healer can go a good bit farther than they might have otherwise.

Clemency doesn't take work away from healers; if anything, it frees up the need for them to drop Cleric Stance to save that one idiot who didn't notice the AoE in time, or allows them to cast Medica after an AoE without first needing to heal the person who got hit to 5% HP because they were the unlucky one to get crit by it.

It's like how a healer DPSing in Cleric Stance doesn't take damage away from the DPS despite there only being a fixed amount of damage possible to deal in a given fight. They do damage because it contributes to group success, and because stance-dancing as a healer is actually a hell of a lot of fun.

We call the overlap between roles and the enhancements that jobs bring their utility. It's also why pseudo-support classes like MCH, BRD, and AST exist.

I will readily agree that Divine Veil and Clemency look better on paper than they feel in practice. But taking healing and group mitigation away from Paladins in favor of some contrived perception of role lines is not the way to make them feel as good as they sound.