Please Remove the Materia Melding Crafter Restriction

[RiceisNice]

Were you against the removal of GraniteSkin? Making Stoneskin baseline for all healers? Were you upset that WHMs lost a very tangible benefit? Or were you relieved that there was one less inconvenience that only the WHM should be stone-skinning everyone since theirs was the best?

No. While it was a bit nessescary with the introduction of three healers (as well as the proshell change) so a WHM would not be the required healer for those benefits, they still receive a faster-cast version stoneskin in it's place that is still better than non-WHM ones so they'd have some form usable damage-shields during combat in the absence of a scholar and astro.

Calling a confirm button "gameplay" is a misnomer. It's a mechanic, but there's no interactivity to be had that can't be said the same of a random number generator.

And your second point is just slippery when applied to this situation.

It's still a functionality of the game that's being taken away from a class to be given to everyone. And I can say the same thing with your suggestion when you want to remove leveling requirements for features like melding.

[CosmicKirby]

No. While it was a bit nessescary with the introduction of three healers (as well as the proshell change) so a WHM would not be the required healer for those benefits, they still receive a faster-cast version stoneskin in it's place that is still better than non-WHM ones so they'd have some form usable damage-shields during combat in the absence of a scholar and astro.

And I would make the same argument here. Now that Materia melding is available for all end-game gear (ostensibly required if you're raiding), it makes sense to alleviate the quirks and inconvenience of having to find someone else to meld your gear up. As I've said before, there are other benefits to crafting than just melding, there still are advantages to leveling crafting.

It's still a functionality of the game that's being taken away from a class to be given to everyone. And I can say the same thing with your suggestion when you want to remove leveling requirements for features like melding.

It's a functionality being made baseline, not being taken away from anything.

If an argument uses valid reasoning, it would not be identified as the slippery slope fallacy,and the term "slippery slope" may be used without a implying faulty argument. Non-fallacious usage acknowledges the possibility of a middle ground between the initial condition and the predicted result, while providing an inductive argument for the probability of that result versus a middle-ground one, usually based on observation of previous comparable circumstances.

Further, I am not making a slippery slope of logic or suggestions here. As this mechanic has been made more common, it makes sense to allow easier access to it. I'm not making the argument or even suggesting that further changes to the system are being needed. In-fact considering the snails pace at which QoL changes roll through the patch notes, (Why, in all that is holy, does Ammo for MCH have a 30 second duration?) I don't think there's valid cause to worry.

[Kaurie]

I know i said I'd edit my last post, but I felt this was better as it would be more likely to be seen

It actually does, whether you choose to listen is your business. Protect, while not only making a difference in solo instances, is also taken off if someone dies, making it harder to recover from death in a raid environment.

You also don't NEED melds for any content period (except perhaps crafting and gathering ironically). Melds just make it slightly easier and give you an edge. The fights are designed so that you can clear with top tier raid gear without melds, melding only makes the fights more manageable, and rewards players for putting in the effort (lets bold that, it is a key word).

I may have not been clear. It responds to my post, but it doesn't address it. I didn't bring up protect to side-track the argument or create a new debate about whether protect was useful or not. I simply used it as an example of a proposed change that is likely to come from a person who is proposing this change. This is in direct contrast to the less logical suggestions of the poster I quoted.

Add I want this item button to your face to get anything you want effortlessly?
Make retainers solo content for you?
Build a wall around yourself so you dont need to commune with anyone questioning your entitled status?

None of these are suggestions that you would logically come from the same person as the OP. Protect is, because it comes down to the same essential stance - that it is an unnecessary burden. The other points the person I quoted suggest the stance of the op has the underlying implications that the OP is lazy and unsocial, when this may simply not be the case.

All of that said, I disagree with your and their argument about the validity of Protect. If you wish to continue this debate, I'd be more than happy to make a new thread on the topic of discussing Protect's usefulness.

Now lets address your post:

if you scroll back a page or two (edit: now at the bottom of this post), you will see I answered this at length by saying that all classes depend on each other (it isn't necessarily about being social), and it is a system that promotes levelling all classes (note: promotes, not requires) in order to get the best out of the system, we have this system to keep crafting and gathering relevant, which is a good thing.

I suppose I missed your post. Thank you for including it in your quote. This is definitely a valid reason for arguing that this stays. I'd argue that adding another avenue for people to meld their items in addition to crafters wouldn't negate crafters role. I'd also say that the role crafters play in melding is fairly insignificant. Raiders already rely in crafters for potions, food etc. From my perspective as a non-crafter, this seems like a more substantial value for crafters than the current melding system of "click to confirm".

see above (superficial in that you don't need the bonus to clear the raids)

Slotting the appropriate materia can mean the difference between hitting a 2% enrage and a clear. Also, having accuracy added to healers could mean a significant change in raid-wide DPS. I would say that materia slotting is definitely required, but I mean you could also say that nothing in this game is required. It's all a game. So this is really an argument that neither side can nor will win.

So you are saying that we should complicate the system massively for... no benefit to the balance of the game as a whole? You also don't like the restriction, but all classes have restriction, that is what gives them relevance in a team based game.

a few thoughts.

1. No, I am attempting to brainstorm ideas so that we can reach a compromise in which both sides are at least somewhat happy. As it is, one side is unhappy one side is happy and most solutions keep it that way. I am throwing out ideas in hopes that people will add on to them, tweak them, etc. so that we can brainstorm as a community to better everyone's enjoyment.

2. I think that complicating a system for the sake of complexity is bad. However, I think that adding complexity to a system with reason can be good. In the sense of my suggestion, the reason for the complexity is so that crafters continue to have a valuable role in melding, while adding a convenient avenue for those who cannot meld their gear (or find someone to) to be able to at least achieve something (tier IV).

3. I am not fully sure I understand your argument about the restriction. I dislike that there is a restriction that you need a WVR level 60 to meld a Tier V materia into a level 60 cloth item. I am not suggesting that no restrictions be put in place. I agree relevance in a team based game is great, but there is no team with melding materia. There is a crafter selecting confirm and that is it. If this was made into more of a team-based system where there was a mutual reliance on each other, then sure that would be better - but I can't think of a good way to implement that.

We call what you are asking for homogenization, and the devs only do it when it is truly necessary. I.e. I will only ever support this when there is a situation where battle classes not having melding becomes a serious detriment to groups (like the homogenization of protect and stoneskin across healers).

Believe me, I am very against homogenization. I think that a lot of the changes to battle classes in 3.x were horrible due to this very reason. I am not suggesting homogenization, I am suggesting that they remove a restriction of finding a crafter in order to meld my gear.

I've come up with a few suggestions on how to address this and would love some more discussion on their merits.

1. Create an NPC that charges X gil to meld materia (perhaps Tier X 10k, so 50k gil for Tier V, 40k for Tier IV or whatever)
2. Create a meld-kit that crafters can create and sell on the market board, which non crafters can purchase and then use as a one-time consumable to meld their gear
3. Create a system where Tier IV mater can be melded by anyone while Tier V materia requires a crafter

The purpose of these suggestions are to add a convenient avenue for people like the OP and I while retaining the value and credibility of crafters in the game.


I have a few other notes:
1. Melding is a fairly insignificant part of crafting, as I understand? I don't think most people level a crafter for the purpose of melding, do they? I could be wrong, but I thought the idea was to be able to create things. In which case, removing melding requirements shouldn't have a significant impact on crafters, and if they do then there is something bigger at play in terms of the game design and crafting.

2. Someone asked what good reason is there to remove this restriction? The reason that I can see is that it is a simple QoL change. This person argued that putting dev resources in to something is a waste, but in that sense so was adding an aetheryte to travel outside of Idyllshire. QoL adjustments happen all the time, and they don't always need to be because of this big game-breaking element. Sometimes it can be because something is inconvenient, and it could be made better.

[Lambdafish]

snip

I'll spend less time debating your point this time because I'd rather offer constructive solutions than destructive answers, but regardless I commend your well thought out response, and I can see from your opinion it makes sense. It makes a change from the cries of "I don't have crafter, I want this feature waaaa," who completely ignored my point of messing with the balance of the status quo.

I do want to clarify a few things though (we'll ignore the protect argument because it really is irrelevant):

I'd argue that adding another avenue for people to meld their items in addition to crafters wouldn't negate crafters role

Not completely, but it would affect game balance, the devs are trying desperately to make crafters relevant (specialist system, relic items, new 220 crafted gear), and making melding relevant has done a lot of good for making crafting relevant, that throwing that away is completely destructive to the system. Would it break crafting? probably not, but it is a counter-productive change.

Slotting the appropriate materia can mean the difference between hitting a 2% enrage and a clear. Also, having accuracy added to healers could mean a significant change in raid-wide DPS.

This is fair, but this is a situation that is not dire, that can be remedied by getting better gear (hello lore gear), which you do not need a crafter for, or you can use that painfully simple feature of asking a crafter to meld your materia, it is one of their jobs, and it is not hard to ask. Yes, it takes effort, but it also took the crafter effort to level the job. I'll go back to my list of class limitations and show you that it really is the only thing that battle classes need crafters for, but crafters need gatherers and battle classes for much more, it really isn't hard to ask.

Ok now I'll offer a counter-list of constructive features:

1. Crafters network: a linkshell to help people find crafters in their server, rather than shouting in zones, you ask for a meld in the LS.
2. If not this, then promotion of a homemade melders/crafters network.
3. Find a crafter. Think of it like PF but specifically for crafters to find work, and for people to ask for a crafter.
4. Revamp the "novice network: crafters" as a separate thing, where you can go to a crafting mentor and feel safe that you won't get ripped off, and can get advice about starting crafting, or even just asking in the novice network if anyone can give you a meld (see this as an extension of 1.)

Or really any way to encourage communication between crafters and gatherers in the world would be a huge step forward with this issue. It would also help specialist crafters (or those that need them), and to bring gathering and crafting classes together. The solution here isn't to give classes new abilities, the solution is to make it easier for the classes to communicate.

I really wish you were on Hyperion, I would personally meld all your materia for free forever :P

[Belhi]

Were you against the removal of GraniteSkin? Making Stoneskin baseline for all healers? Were you upset that WHMs lost a very tangible benefit? Or were you relieved that there was one less inconvenience that only the WHM should be stone-skinning everyone since theirs was the best?

Calling a confirm button "gameplay" is a misnomer. It's a mechanic, but there's no interactivity to be had that can't be said the same of a random number generator.

And your second point is just slippery when applied to this situation.

Yoshi P specifically stated that the strength of WHM new skills was balanced to compensate for WHMs losses and nerfs so that's not a fair comparison unless you are suggesting they give something to crafters to compensate for the loss of this perk which pretty much most of the advocates in this thread aren't. Your just asking for things to be taken away.

Further, though this isn't relevant to the quote, I've seen people mention 220 gear. This is stupid. Yes Crafters can make 220 gear IF they happen to be in the very best gear they can get, which is either heavily gated due to scrips and/or extremely expensive due to crafting RNG, the cost of the materials to make said gear and the amount of Materia lost in overmelding. Its the equivalent to telling someone in PvE who needs a weapons "oh you can get Midas 4 Savage weapons". I would say probably 90% of people with a crafter levelled, if not more, cant infact make 220 gear. And that's not even taking into account the limitations caused by the specialist system.

I do see and understand the need for non crafters to meld gear easily and not be heavily dependent on crafters. They should have another option. However Melding should be less convenient/cheap for them because crafters should get compensated for their efforts in levelling and gearing.

[Parodine]

I do see and understand the need for non crafters to meld gear easily and not be heavily dependent on crafters. They should have another option. However Melding should be less convenient/cheap for them because crafters should get compensated for their efforts in levelling and gearing.

I agree, and I think we can make this compromise. For example, leveling crafters you can repair your gear further than 100% and do it often more cheaply than the NPC menders. So if there was an NPC materia melder, let it offer its services at a premium (5k for a meld, etc) and at a lower success rate, like 10% or so, than crafters can do. This would allow crafters to retain the best ability to meld and still receive requests while allowing people who don't want to bother other people their own to slot their equipment.

[Andrea]

5k for a meld,

5k seems far too low imo, 50k seems more reasonable and would actually work as a gil sink, which this game needs tbh.

[CosmicKirby]

5k seems far too low imo, 50k seems more reasonable and would actually work as a gil sink, which this game needs tbh.

While I like the idea of a decently costly alternative means to melding, I think it's worth noting that if it's too expensive, it won't have the intended effect.

If it costs 50k to get a vendor to do it, people are almost always just going to find someone to do it for them. And if the NPC's going price is 50k, I think a lot of crafters are going to find it pretty easy to ask for a charge of 5k per meld, wouldn't you?

I think 5k is a decent point if they were to modify the system in such a way.

[Andrea]

While I like the idea of a decently costly alternative means to melding, I think it's worth noting that if it's too expensive, it won't have the intended effect.

If it costs 50k to get a vendor to do it, people are almost always just going to find someone to do it for them. And if the NPC's going price is 50k, I think a lot of crafters are going to find it pretty easy to ask for a charge of 5k per meld, wouldn't you?

I think 5k is a decent point if they were to modify the system in such a way.

No matter what cost the npc charges I (and like 99% of crafters) will continue doing melds for free.

While 50k may be too high I still feel 5k is too low.

[Reinha]

I agree, and I think we can make this compromise. For example, leveling crafters you can repair your gear further than 100% and do it often more cheaply than the NPC menders. So if there was an NPC materia melder, let it offer its services at a premium (5k for a meld, etc) and at a lower success rate, like 10% or so, than crafters can do. This would allow crafters to retain the best ability to meld and still receive requests while allowing people who don't want to bother other people their own to slot their equipment.

I think such NPC should have
- 60% chance of success
- no fee but the usual catalyst requirement
- no advanced melding option.

Then there would still be a perk to find another player to do it. I see a lot of people suggesting that advanced melding is enough of perk for crafters but those people probably have no intention to advance meld their mostly non-crafted gear lol. So not much of a perk on it's own. A lower success chance on NPCs would actually keep finding a crafter a tempting option. This is an MMO and we don't need any more cutting of player interaction in the era of Duty Finder and solo questing. Encouraging co-operation between fighters, gatherers and crafters is the right game direction imo. Now if only there were more things that gatherers could offer to fighters and vice versa the system would be even better. Diadem showed they want nothing to do with each other at point in time.