PSA: Mentors can talk about anything they want in Novice Network - Discussion with GM

[Alberel]

So why exactly were mentors given rights to kick people from the channel if they're not allowed to kick people from it?

[Kosmos992k]

Sorry but if SE is going to implement this type of system then they need to also set clearly defined rules regarding it's usage (what's considered on/off-topic) before slapping someone with a ban hammer who thought they were following what the Novice Network is supposed to be for; helping Novice's. The onus is completely on SE for not being clear right from the get go.

From the patch notes;

Removing Players from the Novice Network
In cases of spamming or harassment, a mentor can kick another mentor or a new adventurer from the Novice Network channel. Kicked mentors cannot return for three hours, and kicked new adventurers for thirty minutes. Please be advised that, in doing so, your name, the name of the player being kicked, and the reason will be displayed to everyone on the channel.

* Customer support will be notified when a player is removed from the Novice Network. If your decision to kick a player from the channel was found to be inappropriate then you may face punishment.
* Mentor privileges may be revoked for repeated infractions.

The first sentence, "In cases of spamming or harassment, a mentor can kick", seems quite clear about what you can kick people for. Unless I am somehow missing something, spamming doesn't in any way cover talking about game content, nor is that harassment. Spamming, a definition; the use of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited messages (spam), sending the same message indiscriminately to (large numbers of recipients), especially advertising, as well as sending messages repeatedly

In this case the players were chatting about a valid topic in the game, not spamming, nor were they harassing anyone, at least none that were mentioned by the OP. The OP chose to see their use of the Novice network to chat among themselves as 'spamming', but I don't see how chatting meets the definition of spamming.

Then there is this point, " If your decision to kick a player from the channel was found to be inappropriate then you may face punishment.", which makes it quite clear what will happen if you kick someone wrongly.

I feel sorry for the OP, and agree that the ban is harsh. I actually agree that the player's chat was inappropriate for that specific channel. But the players were not spamming, they were not harassing, they were not even flooding the channel, they were simply chatting. However, technically, it was kick abuse, and because the other players reported it, the GM was left with little choice.

The real problem is there's no Endgame Network.

I believe they are called Linkshells.

[Syrehn]

From the patch notes;


The first sentence, "In cases of spamming or harassment, a mentor can kick", seems quite clear about what you can kick people for. Unless I am somehow missing something, spamming doesn't in any way cover talking about game content, nor is that harassment. Spamming, a definition; the use of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited messages (spam), sending the same message indiscriminately to (large numbers of recipients), especially advertising, as well as sending messages repeatedly

In this case the players were chatting about a valid topic in the game, not spamming, nor were they harassing anyone, at least none that were mentioned by the OP. The OP chose to see their use of the Novice network to chat among themselves as 'spamming', but I don't see how chatting meets the definition of spamming.

Then there is this point, " If your decision to kick a player from the channel was found to be inappropriate then you may face punishment.", which makes it quite clear what will happen if you kick someone wrongly.

I feel sorry for the OP, and agree that the ban is harsh. I actually agree that the player's chat was inappropriate for that specific channel. But the players were not spamming, they were not harassing, they were not even flooding the channel, they were simply chatting. However, technically, it was kick abuse, and because the other players reported it, the GM was left with little choice.

I'm glad you posted the patch notes. They clearly don't define what SE considers "Spam". What might be spammy to other Mentors/Novices in the Novice network (i.e. a constant flow of Mentor/Mentor bantor that is better served in a LS), which they then executed their right to remove the offending person(s) for, was clearly not what SE considered spam. So without clear guidelines it resulted in a GM banning someone who thought there were utilizing the Novice Network correctly by keeping the chat mostly clear for Novice's to ask questions.

Again, as mentioned previously, this puts the onus directly onto SE for not being clear right from the get go.

[Kosmos992k]

Again, as mentioned previously, this puts the onus directly onto SE for not being clear right from the get go.

I think you're wrong. I think you are rather deliberately ducking the simple fact that in the Internet world Spamming has a particular definition, and it's clear it wasn't really met in this case. Even in gameing terms "Spamming Flash", or "button spamming" clearly implies a very repetitive act. Off topic chat is not spam. It's off topic, but that's a different matter all together. In effect you're asking for the Novice Channel to be covered by topic police.

[Syrehn]

I think you're wrong. I think you are rather deliberately ducking the simple fact that in the Internet world Spamming has a particular definition, and it's clear it wasn't really met in this case. Even in gameing terms "Spamming Flash", or "button spamming" clearly implies a very repetitive act. Off topic chat is not spam. It's off topic, but that's a different matter all together. In effect you're asking for the Novice Channel to be covered by topic police.

I'm not deliberately ducking anything but that's your opinion and you're more than entitled to it. Let's just agree to disagree because what you consider spam, what I consider spam, what others consider spam and what SE consider probably don't all align.

I am still adamant that when the Novice Network was implemented they needed to be way more clear regarding spam/on topic/off-topic conversation within the channel. They left it as a big grey area and look what happened.

[Ilitsa]

I can understand why SE would take this stance, it's frustrating to have your conversation policed. While I agree that cluttering up the novice chat with too much idle conversation can be frustrating, if a conversation you're having naturally flows to topics not directly relavent to teaching I don't think players should be kicked from the chat because of it.

thing is, if a conversation gravitates like that, take it to /tells, or a linkshell, the novice network is not a link shell to just chat up in. At least, it shouldn't be. if people are getting bans for doing what the network is MEANT to be, then people advertising their EX farms, hunts, etc should all be receiving warnings/bans as well. Novice Network should not be "Linkshell#9".

[Kosmos992k]

I am still adamant that when the Novice Network was implemented they needed to be way more clear regarding spam/on topic/off-topic conversation within the channel. They left it as a big grey area and look what happened.

I'll agree to disagree with you about your definition of Spam/Spamming, but I have to point out that these terms have specific definitions already.

However, I agree that the topic of off-topic discussion and game spoiling has been omitted from the guidance, and that oversight needs to be fixed. Someone in another topic suggested modifying the kick feature for the Novice network to require multiple Mentors to agree with the kick, as a way of overcoming this difficulty. I agree with that idea because if there are mentors abusing the channel, and several mentors agree that a kick should happen, it should happen. If a player wants to complain about being kicked in this manner, then it's up to them to justify what they were doing.

[Glenburg]

The Novice Network would have benefited from SE setting expectations from the get go. When you hear "Novice Network" and you actually needing to qualify for it, it's automatically assumed it will be a structured learning environment. However, as we know, that wasn't the case. I can see what Square-Enix was going for; a casual way for seasoned players to help new players. At the end of the day, it ends up being a souped up Linkshell/Free Company (Both accomplishing the same thing.)

Many new player's interactions will be via the Novice Network, building their first impression of the community. A bad experience can turn people off potentially quitting the game. I'm not saying everyone needs to act first class, but If I were in a new person's shoes, an advertised yet dysfunctional "go to resource" would be a letdown.

As many were saying, SE should establish guidelines, so everyone is on the same page.

/2 cents

[LisannaTargaryen]

By standing at this

You can post anything you want. Thats SE's stance. So feel free to flood it with advertisements for FCs/ selling runs and general anything goes as long it doesn't harass someone directly and you don't promote RMT services

they were not even flooding the channel, they were simply chatting.

When i have 5 Mentors in the NN flooding it with discussion between them how is not considered spamming? So much that i will miss the message of a sprout and i am forced to move NN to another tab so i can be able to see whats happening with the rest of the communities i participate in game. When there is 100 messages in the novice network from mentors and there was no message from sprout that may had initiated the discussion isn't that spamming?

[WinterLuna]

In all fairness, (in fact this may be the exact case you got banned for) I asked if anyone needed any help with anything in the Novice channel and a Mentor said he needed help with Midas 8. I asked if he wanted to do it since nobody else wanted my help and the novices were fine. You kicked him for spam. In no way did he spam or discuss the strategy for the fight, yet you kicked him anyway along with a lot of other players who didn't do anything wrong. Yes, some people were spamming, but you went on a kicking spree without actually reading and understanding what people were talking about. You kicked around 4-5 people before someone removed you for abusing your rights.

I do not agree with spam in the channel, but spam is completely unrelated chat such as people's personal lives, selling things in the chat etc. You can't just kick random people because their chat doesn't meet your personal standards, especially when someone was asking for help. The people discussing bard changes is understandable, but not the person wanting help.

Edit: I realised this is the exact chat I was in, nobody was discussing Midas strategies. As I said, someone asked for help, I offered it, and you kicked him. Please don't make out people were spoiling or spamming with strategies when this wasn't the case.