[SPOILERS] Minfillia' Fate in 3.2

[Theodric]

I don't think she is purposely sacrificing her children. Its not like she was simply wearing Minfilia as a meat suit. The Word seemed to be as much Minfilia as it was Hydaelyn. Its also worth noting Minfilia volunteered for it. The Journal actually refers to it as her choice. Interestingly it also raises the question in the Journal on why she went to such extremes to pass on that message.

It's the illusion of choice. Minfilia didn't need to be 'whisked away'. She was with the WoL right up until Hydaelyn told her to stay behind. Minfilia exclaimed 'NO!' in that moment before looking conflicted. We don't see her again until 3.2...and at that point she looks conflicted once more and even sounds conflicted when we speak to the portion of Hydaelyn that is seemingly Minfilia.

It would be laughably easy for someone with immense faith in Hydaelyn to be manipulated by Hydaelyn.

[Fenral]

I'm going to play the thematic resonance card on this one and look at how this ties into CT. Most Japanese players thought the stunt G'raha pulled at the end was just the coolest, most noble thing. Most American players saw it as a tragedy we were never given a chance to prevent due to dodgy character writing.

Going by what Cyril linked, every single person in that cutscene was hard-lining for the Law faction and never saw a reason to disagree. Cid's line in Japanese wasn't the unanswered "Is there nothing we can say to stop you?" It was the plainly approving response, "It looks like your resolve is firm." In spite of the entirely vague motivations and dubious necessity, nobody present feels like discussing alternatives. While Japanese players were criticizing it for other reasons, like the poor handling of Doga an Unei's apparent deaths, G'raha's "sacrifice" was not one of them (but a few "Like!"s on the post I made in that thread at least indicate that there were a few Japanese players who felt the same).

Thematic resonance comes into play when you consider both Minfilia and G'raha were dimly aware of a purpose given to them by a higher power (Hydaelyn for Minfilia, Allag for G'raha), both were groomed for that purpose from a very young age with very little info to go on, and both were backed into a corner by developments that pretty much left them with a suddenly-revealed choice between making the ultimate sacrifice or forsaking the "purpose" left to them by their respective higher powers. They even both voiced their lingering regrets before rushing off to do "the right thing." While I had noted some vague similarities between them before, I'm now almost positive that G'raha was meant as an early reflection of Minfilia's present circumstances.

The message is clearly that, "this is what serving the greater good means," but only now, a year later, are my nagging suspicions manifesting into FFXIV's latest change in direction. Matoya hit the nail on the head when she said that Alphinaud needs to learn that there is no universal good. That doesn't mean we're suddenly going to be evil, just that we don't need to kill ourselves for a cause that never existed to begin with. There's nothing evil about trying to find a way to save everyone that includes the people you care about.

[Frederick22]

"I'm in love of G'raha"

pls... no more G'raha
xD

But yea coming back to the post is true. Its a morality thing, that there are monsters in the world doesnt mean that we have become one yourselfs to defeat one. We can be better than them.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I'm wondering if "Sacrifice for the greater good" is so used and Glorified by the Japanese media while the Western Media frowns upon and demonizes it all goes back to the concept of "Ritual Suicide" in the Shogunates.

Back in Feudal Japan dieing for the person/place/ideal you served was the greatest honor a Samurai could have and if one dishonored themselves the only way to redeem the blood and name of your ancestors and descendants was the "Ritual Suicide" technique.

How ever, in the west (America Specifically) there's no honor considered to be in death and suicide is considered the "Coward's Way Out" by many. (Myself included though I wouldn't normal use that exact wording)

So to western and american players it's not unusual that all this "Sacrifice" and "Martyrdom" is being frowned upon and why we are always insisting there were other ways. Because to most of us sacrificing people is never worth a small victory like we've had. G'raha didn't HAVE to lock himself away to control the Crystal Tower, Yasale didn't HAVE to turn into Shiva and ALLOW HER SELF to be taken down (She had given up on living after all), and Minfilia certainly didn't have to be assimilated and/or killed just so hydaelyn could pass ONE message to us that didn't help us one damn bit after we learned it.

All it actually did was make HER ONLY DEFENDERS go "WTF HYDAELYN!?!?" and start questioning their mission. Which would seem counter productive to me.

We can accept Moen to an extent because with out her intervention we likely wouldn't have lived and it was more a "Gotta think fast" kind of thing than premeditated "Since we don't have an obvious better option might as well". Lord H likewise on a spur of the moment "Oh Shit" reaction saved us by attempting to shield us from that potshot and it unfortunately cost him his life. The difference being that for Moen and Lord H there actually was not another option as it was a split second, and quite literal, life or death situation. The other three were not as there were easily more ways to handle the task than "Throw another lamb on the alter".

[Fenral]

not much

And once more you feel a desperate need to follow up right after just to get me to notice you. Jealous, are we?

Sometimes understanding the past requires revisiting things people would rather forget. There are other stories with a few similarities, sure, but that's the only one with an identical outline.

[Fenral]

snip

It's worth noting that glorification of sacrifices is being examined more and more frequently by Japanese writers as well. Fate/stay night is a very frequently cited deconstruction of the self-sacrificing hero, and the Monogatari series by NisiO IssiN is a pretty cutting examination of the relationship between self-sacrifice and (lack of) self-worth.

Hironobu Sakaguchi himself had a pretty noticeable change of heart on heroic sacrifice after FF4, and the series since has reflected that (as well as his post-S-E work). (Aside from Spirits Within, but we don't talk about that.)

If anything, XIV's main flaw up until this patch was its refusal to acknowledge the other side of the coin. (Or to even acknowledge that it was a coin at all.) I suspect we'll ultimately be taking the route between Law and Chaos, but it'll be interesting to finally get a look at the Chaos side of things for a change.

[CyrilLucifer]

Well, I certainly can't criticize Fenral's affection for Raha, considering my own preferences. After all, Raha and Laha are the same in Romanji. . .

But yes, you see my point exactly. The Japanese favor vastly different character traits and actions than westerners due to cultural differences. I know a lot of us see Minfilia's sacrifice and Hydaelyn's treatment of her as something to be frowned upon, but such things may appear very different to Japanese players (and the developers). Hence me wondering in the last thread how exactly the scene is intended to be interpreted.

[Fenral]

I know a lot of us see Minfilia's sacrifice and Hydaelyn's treatment of her as something to be frowned upon, but such things may appear very different to Japanese players (and the developers). Hence me wondering in the last thread how exactly the scene is intended to be interpreted.

Matoya's lines afterwards in Japanese are openly critical of our cause; her wording leaves very little room for doubt, among other things calling it a "flame that burns too bright". (Might need to grab a full transcript manually, since Garland Tools is only in English, near as I can find). For once, we have someone besides the playerbase standing there saying, "that was stupid, guys." She's more vague in English (as-per-bloody-usual), though I suppose this may be a situation where MCKF didn't think English-language players needed the extra hint that "that was bad, yo."

[Berethos]

I feel there has to be more than just needing a mouth piece for one message.

Absolutely, and I feel like that discussion is getting lost in the debate of whether Minfilia had a choice or not and whether Hydaelyn can be trusted because she (apparently - we don't actually know and this is based on conjecture...it's the part of WOTM that was once Minfilia that mentions offering to make a sacrifice, and right now that's the only link we have between Hydaelyn calling out to her and sacrifices) asked one of her most loyal followers to sacrifice herself.

I've been thinking about it all day, and right now I'm of the mind that Hydaelyn and Minfilia as separate entities as we knew them no longer really exist...which means both gave up who they essentially were to become something new as part of this last resort, which I believe changes the dynamic of Minfilia's loss as compared to her being called away to serve as an aetherial battery and message carrier.

If the heir of sorts turns out to be the case, you're even looking at her potentially being asked to join with another to ascend to godhood to protect Eorzea in ways she couldn't as a mortal.

As for the choice part that keeps getting discussed - at some point she did make a choice. That choice was to live her life a certain way in service to Hydaelyn and against the Ascians, and at some point along the way made the choice that she would keep at it even should it cost her her life. It's like a medic on a battlefield - his CO may have just given him an order to get over to another wounded soldier and try to save him, despite numerous obvious risks, and due to rank and training the medic would go and do it...

But at some point he decided he would become a medic and willingly put himself in those situations when the need arose, the way Minfilia seemingly has with the Scions and her life, and I think immediately calling into question whether she had a choice or not in that exact moment (based on, again, conjecture as to what Hydaelyn said to her based on a single word and a few seconds of a concerned look...the "No!" could just as easily been a half dozen other things, including something as simple as "You must leave the WoL to go on alone" and nothing more) lessens the agency she had in the past to decide to live (and continue to live) her life that way.

[Fenral]

Just because people have chosen to fight and die as soldiers, doesn't mean there isn't merit in trying to stop the war itself. I think where this particular moment is in the bigger picture is getting lost in the need to continue to justify the course we have been on as correct and not in need of questioning or deviation. Y'shtola dismissed it entirely, and Thancred has pretty much snapped. These people have worked together for years; there's no way something like this can happen without taking a toll.

We can't keep fighting blindly, and no matter what we may or may not learn by searching for real answers, we have to learn all we can. There are always other ways, and trying too hard to frame our struggle as some great war may be a much older problem than we think, and could even be at the root of the calamities themselves.

And technically, people given the Echo don't choose it, they're "chosen." She didn't sign up for that, nor did she sign up for the extra fine print that keeps getting tacked onto the contract. Maybe Hydaelyn really is some great objective good, and maybe she hasn't done anything terrible to Minfilia at all, but there's no way in hell I'm going to take that on faith after everything that has happened.