[SPOILERS] Minfillia' Fate in 3.2

[Kaiser-Ace]

I don't deny the theories that the mothercrystal may not be a good or benevolent being, but seeing how the theme of crystals and crystals being "good" in past Final Fantasy games, the odds of the mothercrystal being bad is very slim.

Being "Not Bad" isn't the same as being "Good". She can have a " Divine Plane" where it all works out in the end, but that won't stop her from sacrificing her "Children" for "The Greater Good" which is all fine and good till you or someone you care about is the next offering.

[Belhi]

Being "Not Bad" isn't the same as being "Good". She can have a " Divine Plane" where it all works out in the end, but that won't stop her from sacrificing her "Children" for "The Greater Good" which is all fine and good till you or someone you care about is the next offering.

I don't think she is purposely sacrificing her children. Its not like she was simply wearing Minfilia as a meat suit. The Word seemed to be as much Minfilia as it was Hydaelyn. Its also worth noting Minfilia volunteered for it. The Journal actually refers to it as her choice. Interestingly it also raises the question in the Journal on why she went to such extremes to pass on that message.

[Berethos]

The Word seemed to be as much Minfilia as it was Hydaelyn.

That was the impression I got as well.

She does speak as if they came together as a sort of joining, rather than Hydaelyn consuming Minfilia and the latter being lost to the former.

Of course that raises additional questions if true - possible that the combined version is essentially a new entity of sorts? And what would that mean for us?

[Belhi]

That was the impression I got as well.

She does speak as if they came together as a sort of joining, rather than Hydaelyn consuming Minfilia and the latter being lost to the former.

Of course that raises additional questions if true - possible that the combined version is essentially a new entity of sorts? And what would that mean for us?

The echo makes things funny. We really have barely touched on it but by far the Echo makes us more 'unnatural' than anything else, including the Blessing of Light. Theoretically we could do the same thing the Ascians do and possess other people if our body died.

Since the end of 2.0 there has been a really strong sense that we are the last play Hydaelyn has. She knows she is on the point of losing. I think everything she has done since we stepped on the field, and perhaps even before that, has been preparing for her diminishing. Midgardsormr's test would make a lot more sense if the whole point of it was for us to be able to grow strong enough to use the blessing without needing Hydaelyn. After all, as the Ascians said, Hydaelyn has sacrificed a great deal of her strength protecting us.

It occurred to me that in a way what Hydaelyn might be doing with Minfilia is effectively passing off part of her existence into another vessel. I feel there has to be more than just needing a mouth piece for one message. Why create the Word if that was all that was needed? Surely Minfilia could have carried the truth to us without needing to be bound to Hydaelyn. One possibility is in Minfilia she is creating a sort of 'heir'. If she is growing so weak that she cant sustain herself, perhaps by turning Minfilia into a kind of avatar of the light sustains a sentience for the Light that Hydaelyn represents.

Long term I suspect our end goal will be restablishing some kind of balance. How that would work however is anyone's guess.

[Berethos]

I feel there has to be more than just needing a mouth piece for one message.

Absolutely, and I feel like that discussion is getting lost in the debate of whether Minfilia had a choice or not and whether Hydaelyn can be trusted because she (apparently - we don't actually know and this is based on conjecture...it's the part of WOTM that was once Minfilia that mentions offering to make a sacrifice, and right now that's the only link we have between Hydaelyn calling out to her and sacrifices) asked one of her most loyal followers to sacrifice herself.

I've been thinking about it all day, and right now I'm of the mind that Hydaelyn and Minfilia as separate entities as we knew them no longer really exist...which means both gave up who they essentially were to become something new as part of this last resort, which I believe changes the dynamic of Minfilia's loss as compared to her being called away to serve as an aetherial battery and message carrier.

If the heir of sorts turns out to be the case, you're even looking at her potentially being asked to join with another to ascend to godhood to protect Eorzea in ways she couldn't as a mortal.

As for the choice part that keeps getting discussed - at some point she did make a choice. That choice was to live her life a certain way in service to Hydaelyn and against the Ascians, and at some point along the way made the choice that she would keep at it even should it cost her her life. It's like a medic on a battlefield - his CO may have just given him an order to get over to another wounded soldier and try to save him, despite numerous obvious risks, and due to rank and training the medic would go and do it...

But at some point he decided he would become a medic and willingly put himself in those situations when the need arose, the way Minfilia seemingly has with the Scions and her life, and I think immediately calling into question whether she had a choice or not in that exact moment (based on, again, conjecture as to what Hydaelyn said to her based on a single word and a few seconds of a concerned look...the "No!" could just as easily been a half dozen other things, including something as simple as "You must leave the WoL to go on alone" and nothing more) lessens the agency she had in the past to decide to live (and continue to live) her life that way.

[CyrilLucifer]

snip

That's all well and good, and I agree to disagree, but why is it okay?

Why is it okay for Hydaelyn to even ask one of Her children to sacrifice their individuality in the first place? That's not to say FF hasn't done this in the past, since they did something similar with Aeris and the Lifestream, but at least Aeris wasn't requested to die specifically for a purpose - she was flat out murdered, even if she knew her death was coming. She also retained her individuality after death.

"Greater Good" one might argue, but then, as we've all said at one point, your "good" stops being "greater" when you start absorbing and eliminating the individuality of those who follow you. Though I do agree that Hydaelyn seems to have been eliminated by Minfilia as well and they seem to be a Hydaefilia. I believe Hydaelyn has as much right to individuality as Minfilia (and Zodiark, actually).

Building off that - why shouldn't we question? Why should we be expected to follow blindly and loyally, after seeing the fate of our friend that only led to vague answers that weren't answers at all. All she gave us was more questions. I have a lot of problems with the scene in general, but this is the biggest one for me. The Scions rightfully believe it is a tragedy, but I didn't really feel like they thought it was justified to question Hydaelyn. It happened because Minfilia was "always closest" to Her, and she was needed.

A type of blind, "Hydaelyn is the Mother, She knows what is best for everyone" following almost reminiscent of tempering.

(I actually do believe this is the result of one of those aforementioned cultural issues, though, more than anything)

[CyrilLucifer]

Its also worth noting Minfilia volunteered for it. The Journal actually refers to it as her choice.

I've gone over this in the other thread, but there are times when a choice isn't truly a choice. Adequate pressure and perception of responsibility makes it an obligation.

Minfilia did not have a choice here, not really.

Belated Edit: I actually believe this is a cultural issue.

Since I know quite a few of you here on this board enjoy non-FF Japanese games, I'm going to pull out the "SMT: Raidou Kuzunoha vs King Abaddon" topic when it comes to sacrifice, choice, and its perception in western vs Japanese culture, since the entire game revolves around it. tl;dr, they're very, very different. It's those same cultural boundaries that made 2.55 seem really off to some of us.

Edit 2: here we go. It's relating to America specifically, but it describes exactly why there may be such differing perceptions:
http://telebunny.net/toastywiki/inde...TheAmericanWay

[Theodric]

I don't think she is purposely sacrificing her children. Its not like she was simply wearing Minfilia as a meat suit. The Word seemed to be as much Minfilia as it was Hydaelyn. Its also worth noting Minfilia volunteered for it. The Journal actually refers to it as her choice. Interestingly it also raises the question in the Journal on why she went to such extremes to pass on that message.

It's the illusion of choice. Minfilia didn't need to be 'whisked away'. She was with the WoL right up until Hydaelyn told her to stay behind. Minfilia exclaimed 'NO!' in that moment before looking conflicted. We don't see her again until 3.2...and at that point she looks conflicted once more and even sounds conflicted when we speak to the portion of Hydaelyn that is seemingly Minfilia.

It would be laughably easy for someone with immense faith in Hydaelyn to be manipulated by Hydaelyn.