[3.0] Craftsmanship and Control bonus parameters will be added to Souls of the Crafte

[OoglieBooglie]

We have different views of what a healthy economy is, apparently.

Specialist recipes give everyone something nice to sell and the price will never drop too much, so there's lots of gil circulating because people will sell their specialist things to buy other people's. That's a healthy economy, and it's great. Prices dropping isn't always a good thing (it never is for anyone but the buyer, actually).

Ah, but therein lies the problem. People DON'T just buy the specialist things on the marketboard. Some super hardcore people level alts. Others just ask a friend to make it for them. No way in hell I'm paying 100k or 200k or whatever for pterodactyl leather to make the caster body piece to spiritbond or whatever, so screw that. I'll just go without it, or have a friend make it for me. Only problem is that now I have to bother a friend to do it, and they in turn have to ask me to do stuff, instead of doing it on our own time whenever. It's pretty inconvenient. So now, instead of people making gil off of it, I'm avoiding it entirely or avoiding paying for it with a friend. In theory, the idea works, but in practice, not so much. Kinda like communism, where practice never really comes close to the idea and stays that way.

[MomomiMomi]

Only problem is that now I have to bother a friend to do it, and they in turn have to ask me to do stuff, instead of doing it on our own time whenever.

Working as intended.

[Nezerius]

Working as intended.

Crafting worked just fine before the introduction of specialist recipes, and the specialist system could've been changed to make the choices more appealing (like the bonus parameters to souls) instead of using restrictions on recipes.

One of the things I enjoyed about 2.x was the possibility of becoming self sufficient on one character, if I were to put enough effort into maxing out/gearing all the classes.
While this is still possible in 3.1, as I currently have three characters to cover all specialists, is kind of a pain to move items from one alt to another, since I can't use the mail system.

[dalta]

Working as intended.

what do you mean 'as intended'? thay only added the SSR's cus the community was asking for them to do it to justify Specialist's existence


Specialist's intended design was to make it so ppl did not have to level all the other crafting classes and thay could just do the ones they wanted

[Kakure]

So now, instead of people making gil off of it, I'm avoiding it entirely or avoiding paying for it with a friend.

You're missing the point. Exchange is axiomatically good. Bartering with your friend is no less a form of economic exchange than buying stuff from a stranger. Looking for a more favorable arrangement and opting not to buy something when the price exceeds its value does not make economics wrong; that's the mechanism by which the system works.

One of the things I enjoyed about 2.x was the possibility of becoming self sufficient on one character, if I were to put enough effort into maxing out/gearing all the classes.

I enjoy being completely self-sufficient as well. I would also enjoy it if black mages were made invincible. What players enjoy is not always the same as what's good for the game.

[OoglieBooglie]

You're missing the point. Exchange is axiomatically good. Bartering with your friend is no less a form of economic exchange than buying stuff from a stranger. Looking for a more favorable arrangement and opting not to buy something when the price exceeds its value does not make economics wrong; that's the mechanism by which the system works.

I understand the point. Exchanging goods with someone is indeed functionally the same as making something for trade, putting it up for sale, and using that gil to buy something else. In reality, people are incapable of making everything themselves, due to things such as skill ability and time. That's why we have specialized ourselves in real life. A person that specializes and spends all their time in repairing nuclear reactors will do much much better than someone who spends all their time farming, but due to time, its probably impossible to do both. Therefore it becomes more efficient for person A to solely repair nuclear reactors while person B grows food. Person A repairs person B's reactor (I have no idea why a farmer would have a nuclear reactor, but that's not the point of the argument, maybe they're in the middle of nowhere and that's the best power generation source there), and person B in turn provides person A with food. In the economics class I took, I believe the classic example was guns and butter. That system is what enabled us to rise from caves and fly into space. But in video games, it's different. There's no skill level developed over time that limits crafting ability in this game, the only difference is gear and a few cross class abilities (some classes have more or fewer skills that are used, so the amount needed to cross class is different from class to class). THERE IS NO NEED FOR PERSON A TO DEPEND ON PERSON B. Initially, it makes sense that people would focus on one class at first, and as such some people would temporarily depend on others (like a blacksmith would make the main/offhands for someone that wanted to focus first on leatherworker, while the leatherworker could make some gear for the blacksmith).

However, past a certain point, it becomes unnecessary and cumbersome. If you want to make maybe a hammer or something, you'll probably need some lumber from a carpenter (hammers tend to require lumber if I remember right). To get that lumber, you have a few options. You can make it yourself or trade for it. Typically, making it yourself is probably the easiest. To trade for it, you can either make an item and swap, or purchase with gil. To purchase with gil, you can make something else and sell it. However, either method of trading requires waiting on another person at some point. Trading requires finding someone and possibly waiting for them to craft it when they have time. Purchasing with gil involves putting stuff up for sale and then waiting for it to sell. Having a large quantity of gil on hand reduces the impact of that part, but it still has to be replenished, which involves time and waiting, while at the same time competing with others.

But wait, what if you suddenly want to go on a spiritbonding binge? You'll need a large quantity of materials, and will HAVE to trade or buy it. Buying it can get very expensive very quickly, especially as the price tends to rise as you buy out the cheaper things, and you may have to deal with the possiblity of the mb running out of stock. Trading will also require a fair bit of time from someone else, especially if you need something like an entire hq stack of whatever.

These kinds of things are why I dislike having to find other people to craft stuff. One item every now and then isn't a big deal, like having a faerie chandelier commissioned for your house in game. But if I just suddenly have the urge to produce something to spiritbond or something, it very quickly becomes a very large pain in the butt. It's actually a large part of the reason why I just got tired of spiritbonding sky pirate stuff in the diadem, because I would have to bug other people to make me the pterodactyl leather and stuff while I could have very easily done it myself with my gear. I don't know about you, but I refuse to pay 200k for pterodactyl leather (yes, it's 200k for nq on my server, I just checked) for a single mat to make a single piece of spiritbonding gear. Sure, I could just make my own stuff to sell for that same gil. But I would have to make 3-4 titanium alloy ingots to match that amount, AND hope someone doesn't undercut me before I can sell it. Instead of creating trade, it eventually just caused me to stop doing the action entirely. It's not helping two people who are really good at making 2 different things. Its forcing 2 people to not make the same thing.

[MomomiMomi]

THERE IS NO NEED FOR PERSON A TO DEPEND ON PERSON B.

And therein lies the problem, and what leads to an unhealthy, and boring, economy.

What you see as a problem in needing to rely on others, I see as a reason for my friend to finally level crafting, and us to be able to support each other. Before, there was no reason, for I could make it all.

Indeed, I could simply use my alts for the missing crafts. But that is not fun. Supporting each other is.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And therein lies the problem, and what leads to an unhealthy, and boring, economy.

What you see as a problem in needing to rely on others, I see as a reason for my friend to finally level crafting, and us to be able to support each other. Before, there was no reason, for I could make it all.

Indeed, I could simply use my alts for the missing crafts. But that is not fun. Supporting each other is.

The problem with this concept is it does nothing to deter the hardcore crafters. In fact, it only incentives them to level an alt or two and have immediate access to all the specialist benefits through a roundabout means. For many, that's a better alternative to being forced into nudging their friends constantly, and an especially better method to paying out the nose. Another issue derives by limiting the market, you ensure those hardcore crafters will focus on those items and be that much more likely to undercut you mercilessly. With a less exclusive pool, you keep people from attempting to monopolize.

This does nothing to stop the omni-crafters, it just inconveniences them.

[Mindy_Macready]

And therein lies the problem, and what leads to an unhealthy, and boring, economy.

What you see as a problem in needing to rely on others, I see as a reason for my friend to finally level crafting, and us to be able to support each other. Before, there was no reason, for I could make it all.

Indeed, I could simply use my alts for the missing crafts. But that is not fun. Supporting each other is.

The problem with forcing other people to craft is that suddenly, for everything other than the few specialist crafts in the game, they suddenly don't need you for ANYTHING at all. Where before they could be lazy and spend some gil, now they can't afford even to do that.

Just like how favor mats and red scrip farming forced me to suddenly start gathering in order to avoid spending tons of gil. Suddenly I have no use for other gatherers.

The system is short-sighted in its goals and doesn't help the economy in the long run.

[Kakure]

That system is what enabled us to rise from caves and fly into space. But in video games, it's different.

I disagree. I could gather all my own shards and go fishing each time I need to make something that requires shark oil, but it would be astoundingly inefficient. You and I might both be capable of mining our own adamantite, but that does nothing to change the system-level inefficiency of a situation in which one of us needs adamantite and the other is sitting on a large stockpile of it.

Go compare the market board on a populous server against the market board on a struggling server. That's why a robust economy with lots of trade is good, even in video games.

Instead of creating trade, it eventually just caused me to stop doing the action entirely.

Again, that's how the system works. If the price of pterodactyl leather is outrageous, switch specialties to take advantage of the situation. Find someone who is willing to barter with you or sell it for less. Stop making stuff with pterodactyl leather until the people selling it lower the price. Those are all valid choices, and none of them means that encouraging exchange and interdependence through specialization fails in practice.