Mentoring: perhaps we're better off without it

[Nalien]

Why do people keep thinking Mentors are meant to somehow fix Lv60 problems? That is entirely what Stone, Sky, Sea is for. That is the content that is meant to improve Lv60 players, the problem there being that it is entirely optional, so every terrible player is just going to continue being terrible by ignoring it (hopefully SE does the right thing and adapts it to design solo Trials for something like the Relic questline, which can force "Git Gud" on scrubs).

Mentors, though, are meant to be helping (not lecturing) new players;

- What is a mentor?
Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers. To facilitate their assistance, mentors will gain access to a special chat channel as well as a means to easily register for duties and trials with new players.

Question; What does knowing my Dragoons perfect Lv60 rotation have to do with helping out new players? The players Mentors will be helping likely wont even have Jobs unlocked, they're not going to know what half the skills I'd talk about are, that kind of information is entirely irrelevant to them and if anything dumping it on them would be detrimental more than anything. Mentors are literally just there to help with content and queues and provide a singular channel for new players to gravitate towards to meet players, rather than having several scattered groups who offer help. It is much more efficient to have a singular channel like that. I don't get the worry that terrible Mentors will influence new players, either... If I, as a Mentor, see shitty advice in the Mentor chat, am I somehow unable to correct that?

I really don't get this obsession people have with thinking Mentors should be the pinnacle of XIVs players... Who the f*ck cares if you can best Stone, Sky, Sea for Sephirot (Extreme)? Certainly not the new players who need you to be a Lv30 Healer so they can get through a dungeon to progress (and that is why we have a trinity Job requirement, so every Mentor can fill any role required by new players, so that if you pop into the Mentor Roulette as a tank or healer, you can provide some basic advice for the other roles in the party, that people are hung up on the Job requirements when leveling is the easiest thing ever astound me...). It's an absolutely absurd notion that we should turn away helpful people if they can't beat some arbitrary trial which has nothing to do with Mentors. You do not need to be clearing Thordan (Extreme) to the best of your ability in order to help some new player get through Aurum Vale...

[Toguro]

Why do people keep thinking Mentors are meant to somehow fix Lv60 problems? That is entirely what Stone, Sky, Sea is for. That is the content that is meant to improve Lv60 players, the problem there being that it is entirely optional, so every terrible player is just going to continue being terrible by ignoring it (hopefully SE does the right thing and adapts it to design solo Trials for something like the Relic questline, which can force "Git Gud" on scrubs).

Because you need lv60 to help lv5 players learn and 1,000 dungeons to fully ensure you know the mechanics of Sastasha and Tam-Tara Deepcroft

You do not need to be clearing Thordan (Extreme) to the best of your ability in order to help some new player get through Aurum Vale...

Doing 1,000 dungeons/trials to help some new player through Aurum Vale is equally as absurd.

[Nalien]

Because you need lv60 to help lv5 players learn and 1,000 dungeons to fully ensure you know the mechanics of Sastasha and Tam-Tara Deepcroft

So what? Should we be able to be a Mentor without Lv60 in each role? So when a new player wants help with Tam-Tara Deepcroft, you can't help because you're solely a DPS and and they need tanks and healers. Easy enough to have all the Jobs in that level range? Well, where do we cut this off then? Someone needs help with Lv50 content? What if someone needs help with The Vault? Lv60 is the most logical cut off for the requirement here, it means you've played the Job enough and can help with pretty much anything.

Doing 1,000 dungeons/trials to help some new player through Aurum Vale is equally as absurd.

I see the 1,000 instances as less of a "You know how to play" check, and more of a "You're dedicated to this game" check. I mean it's both really, but yeah... Do we want Mentors who drop off for months and have thus not really done that much content, or do we want Mentors who No Life the game and will likely always be available? There is a reason the newer versions of that Achievement are called Lifer... That said, if any of the requirements are over the top, I think it's that one.

That's all the requirements do, ensure Mentors are people who play. Is that perfect? Not really, but it's the best we're going to get. The notion that something like Stone, Sky, Sea should be incorporated would, IMO, have a negative impact on the system. It sends the message not that Mentors should be helpers, but instead that they should be drill sergeants who hammer in the finer points of an endgame rotation that new players may never really care for. Getting to Lv60 is a new players focus, not beating Sephirot.

[Toguro]

So what? Should we be able to be a Mentor without Lv60 in each role? So when a new player wants help with Tam-Tara Deepcroft, you can't help because you're solely a DPS and and they need tanks and healers. Easy enough to have all the Jobs in that level range? Well, where do we cut this off then? Someone needs help with Lv50 content? What if someone needs help with The Vault? Lv60 is the most logical cut off for the requirement here, it means you've played the Job enough and can help with pretty much anything.

The mentoring only works for a new players' first 40 hours. Newbies wont be in anything lv50 or above.

The notion that something like Stone, Sky, Sea should be incorporated would, IMO, have a negative impact on the system.

I agree completely. There should be no endgame content tied to Beginner Mentoring ever. That would be for something like Level 60 Mentoring.

I also believe 1,000 dungeons/trials would be more suitable for Level 60 Mentoring and have Beginner Mentoring set at 300. A good number when you're talking about bone dry dungeons like 15-44 at least. Aurum Vale is a *bit* harder. But after 300 dungeons you should know.

[Nalien]

The mentoring only works for a new players' first 40 hours. Newbies wont be in anything lv50 or above.

That's for Mentor chat.

Players who've past 40 hours can still seek out Mentors independently. Mentor Roulette is still going to occasionally put you in Sohm Al with a player who is there for the first time.

[Toguro]

That's for Mentor chat.

Players who've past 40 hours can still seek out Mentors independently. Mentor Roulette is still going to occasionally put you in Sohm Al with a player who is there for the first time.

Pretty much just as unproven as what I say about the 40 hours

[Nalien]

Pretty much just as unproven as what I say about the 40 hours

What?

- Novice Network
Upon becoming a mentor, you will automatically gain access to the Novice Network, a chat channel where new adventurers can seek the advice of veteran players.
* The "New Adventurer" status is applied to all players who have less than 40 hours of play time.

- Duty Roulette: Mentor
Mentors will also gain access to Duty Roulette: Mentor, which assigns players to duties that are struggling to fill party member slots.
* With the exception of parties actively seeking members for an ongoing duty, Duty Roulette: Mentor will not match together a full party of mentors.

Granted, the Mentor Roulette doesn't actually specify filling groups with the first time bonus, but I could have sworn they mentioned that during the Live Letter. We absolutely have a easily identifiable symbol next to a Mentors name though, which absolutely allows anyone to seek them out for help/advice;

I would actually imagine many Mentors will be using the Novice Chat to recruit to their Free Companies/etc., it's basically a tool to help new players find their place in the games established community. No reason to think Mentors will stop being helpful after that 40 hours symbol drops off, and the Roulette makes no mention of being exclusive to such players.

There is probably a very good chance they're adding the Mentor Roulette at the same time as opening up all (except PvP Roulette, ffs!) to premade parties. That takes potential negative elements out of the Duty Finder, as they'll do the Roulette with friends (assuming they have any), while the Mentor Roulette picks up the slack with helpful players, rather than "I'm just here for the Roulette bonus" players... Assuming they don't fudge the Mentor rewards...

EDIT;

OK, from the Live Letter;

As a special privilege for mentors, we'll be adding "Duty Roulette: Mentor" to the Duty Finder, which will include all the trials and dungeons up until Patch 2.55, except for raids. This roulette will grant priority matching with players who have yet to complete dungeons and trials, as well as players who have the sprout icon next to their name.

With that in mind, it might make more sense for a Lv50 Job requirement, though given we can still seek out Mentors independently, I think Lv60 still fits.

[Waryax]

The mentoring only works for a new players' first 40 hours. Newbies wont be in anything lv50 or above.

Nothing is preventing you from continuing to mentor your prospect after they can't access the chat channel. You make it sound like your teaching would be completely ineffective at that point.

The chat channel should be better for finding the players or answering short questions anyway, which shouldn't be a thing after playing for 40 hours. And if it is, nothing is preventing people from asking a mentor-icon-person they see somewhere or making linkshells for extra mentoring.

If everybody stayed in the chat for longer to discuss all possible lengthy job-specific topics, we couldn't get to the people the system is really geared for from all the chat spam. That stuff should be talked in private or on another linkshell anyway to have conversational peace.

[Waryax]

Doing 1,000 dungeons/trials to help some new player through Aurum Vale is equally as absurd.

The requirements just ensure quality over quantity. The same player can be expected to have more experience and knowledge after completing the requirements than what they did before. At the very least they won't have lost any.

[SpookyGhost]

Why do people keep thinking Mentors are meant to somehow fix Lv60 problems? That is entirely what Stone, Sky, Sea is for.

I agree with this, however I think that if that actually is the case then Stone, Sky, Sea isn't well implemented.